**January Fastrack News**

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steverife
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by steverife »

JohnSmith wrote:
flier129 wrote:I don't know how I feel about that open ECU rule for ST*. Sounds like an opportunity for Whitener-like competitor to put a $5000 Motec in a $2500(before parts) Miata.
Well right now I'm effectively running a standalone as a piggyback. The stock ECU is spliced in and does enough things to make it all compliant, especially running the obd2 port. I've just got an ms3 on it (running via stock MAF sensor!). With a relatively simple engine I don't know what a $5k motec would get you considering things like traction control cannot be added as well as the inability to add new sensors to the engine for better control. The new rules may actually greatly simplify what is needed to have a compliant setup similar to mine. A lot of the wiring I did would not be needed.

Anyhow, I'm not really sure how the NB would have a chance in STS. If it went to an open diff with narrower wheels and tires it seems unlikely that it would be competitive given how much more it weighs. I honestly think STX is a reasonably place for the car considering how much less tire you can put on it compared to the other class favorites in STX.
The risk there is that STX is booming. You can't got to an event and not find a prepped FRS/BRZ. If the Miata proved to be a capable winner, you'd really hurt the class. I don't think you are going to see hundreds of prepped NB's. Miatas already have 2 ST classes.
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John Brown
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by John Brown »

STS may need a participation boost this year after all the folks in Miatas that are dropping out. But the NB aint gonna do no damage to the Hondas,thats for sure.

And what ST does not need is another place to spend 5K... and I dont see SCCA puttin a 20 yr old ringer in a class dominated by current "cool" cars.

GS baby! :rockon:
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steverife
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by steverife »

I just want to run the Spyder in ST. :)
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thrdeye
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by thrdeye »

The open ECU proposal is really tough and becomes a circular discussion.

Newer turbo cars are so much better from the factory than in the early 2000's. If you look at STX rules back then, it looks like they were specifically written to fix everything wrong with the factory WRX. Now, Subaru uses a twin scroll setup and other technology and the things are actually driveable from the factory....they even stop now....using then brakes. So, you don't need more power or a tune to make them fun to autocross.

But....

First thing most people in a Subaru, Ford, etc. turbo car do is get an off the shelf tune or custom tune on the car. For some, they even do the tunes to keep the engine safe (not too lean). SO - the open ecu bit would really be great in fixing that, since ST's purpose was supposedly to allow common mods that "street tuner" dudes do.

That said, we all know what happens with those allowances at the bleeding edge. The open ECU rule, nationally, could be perceived to give the person that is willing to risk their engine every run (deep pockets) an advantage. On the other hand - I think a lot of ST turbo cars are probably already on that edge.

Next thing....

Are people cheating now? I mean turning up the boost and letting it eat? I don't think many (or really anyone) is trying to skirt the rules nationally. Have they found loopholes in the rules to get them more boost? Maybe.

Can the tunes be policed? No, they can't. Not in all cases. And since boost increase from mechanical changes is allowed, you can't just look at PSI and make sure it's not being exceeded.

BUT THEN

the other part of the puzzle that can be policed is Octane rating of the fuel, so take note of that proposal as well. You can only make so much power on 93.

Case in point - the open boost tune on the STi (for 93) only made a little more power than the STU legal tune. But the STU tune was MUCH more aggressive. You could only run it up to 3rd gear. Long pulls in 4th-6th would be bad. The STU tune on 100 Octane? INSANE. I remember launching the car, shifting into second and immediately spinning the thing from the power delivery. Now, this is Subaru, I have no knowledge of other makes, really or how Subaru has actually changed in the last few years.

So, I think my final conclusion is that if they can get the wording of the octane rule correct, I'd support the open ECUs. Classing changes needed? Maybe. In my opinion, even those at the pointy end of the field in ST don't want to rebuild an engine every year and they will run a tune that's at least as safe as what's currently happening.

If they Octane thing doesn't work out correctly, then I would suggest either A) Open ECU or B) I/H/E changes only, no tuning. Option B is a non starter in many cases since a tune is required to run bolt ons safely.

All this said, I wish they could just leave shit alone for a while.
Chris Harp
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flier129
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by flier129 »

A freshly built ST* BP4W engine tuned properly on a stand alone can make 140rwhp. Sub 2100lbs in ST trim, so it could be a STS contender until you realize you have an open diff :lol:

I'm still trying to figure out a way to control the OEM boost solenoid via ECU on a MSM :rockon:
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jcox07
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by jcox07 »

The open ecu rule will hurt most cars and make class killers out of others. I can go up almost 100 rwhp on 93 octane with just a tune. I think JB has a national/pro solo class killer and with the open ecu rule he has a really great chance to win every pro solo he goes to. Like Chris said with just a little turn up in boost it's hard to detect.
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thrdeye
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by thrdeye »

jcox07 wrote:The open ecu rule will hurt most cars and make class killers out of others. I can go up almost 100 rwhp on 93 octane with just a tune. I think JB has a national/pro solo class killer and with the open ecu rule he has a really great chance to win every pro solo he goes to.
Apples and oranges though. I've seen Mark drive your car in CAM. Another 100 HP ain't helping much for you. I think you'd be limited to 315's (200 treadwear) and 11 inch wheels in ST trim on your car. You'd also have to take off a lot of your suspension work to be ST legal.

Open ECU would not impact John's car since he is STREET, not STREET TOURING

If you meant the STS Miata, his ECU is already open...well, pretty much since it's OBD1
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jcox07
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by jcox07 »

No, I meant JB'S GS car as it is very hard to say if one car vs the next car will be matched on the same boost levels and a slight tune can't be detected if they want to take that chance and I guarantee some are. Now if the ecu is like the new vettes and you can tell if it has been tampered with then yeah no chance they will tamper with turning up the boost, but my money is on someone turning up the boost just a little if the ecu won't give them away and becoming a street killing car what ever class they are in and yeah in my car more power doesn't help but in cam c with 335's it does well but in street it would not. Their are some really good street cars out there that could become the pro solo car to have. I do think their are people (whitners) out there that will push the envelope in street till they get caught or scca does develop a way to police it.
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John Brown
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by John Brown »

I dont have experience in ANY ECU doing much to a NA engine.. even with extensive engine mods.. Turbo cars are un believable what they gain tho!!

The NA got appx 20 hp and 13ft of torque with a MegaSquirt.. Our BMW cars at ACTION got maybe 30/40 using Motec Engine controls. All that HP comes at one hellufa price per HP.

On the other hand.. a tune on a Turbo...OMG! cheapest HP imaginable....!

and BTW.. more HP in a FWD car..eh, is prolly useless ! :lol:
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thrdeye
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by thrdeye »

John Brown wrote:I dont have experience in ANY ECU doing much to a NA engine.. even with extensive engine mods.. Turbo cars are un believable what they gain tho!!
Overall Power/Tq on an NA car - yeah ok....not much to gain.

But increasing your rev limiter or changing VTEC parameters? I think those things can make a big difference in autocross. But NA cars can already do that for the most part.

As far as boosted cars in STREET/STOCK, you should be able to police that I would think. Depends on what's in the FSM I suppose, but if the ECU has to be stock, the dealer should be able to tell if it's futzed with if there is a protest. May not be able to tell at the event, but I bet the dealer can.
Chris Harp
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John Brown
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by John Brown »

jcox07 wrote:The open ecu rule will hurt most cars and make class killers out of others. I can go up almost 100 rwhp on 93 octane with just a tune. I think JB has a national/pro solo class killer and with the open ecu rule he has a really great chance to win every pro solo he goes to. Like Chris said with just a little turn up in boost it's hard to detect.

LOL! this had me scrruring thru the Fast Track .. looking for this rule..

that was mean JY... :lol:
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90civichb
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by 90civichb »

Do most modern cars come with an electronic boost controller? I thought most were still governed by the wastegate spring.

With an electronic boost controller the advantage is massive. My car set up for quickest spool is stupid fun on the street but it makes it twitchy for autocross. I set the boost table much more linear for autocross and found good success for my driving style.
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jcox07
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by jcox07 »

I know on the Mustang platform the ecu could be tuned and reset back the factory settings and no one, even the dealer could tell up to the 2016 cars and that was the late 2016 cars. Not sure if the other ford's can tell with their ecu or not. Turbo cars are easier than super charged cars to change boost with the ecu as pulleys are involved with SC cars. I truly think someone tries the boost game this year, but we will have to wait and see and I can't wait to start running again.
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90civichb
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by 90civichb »

The thing is turbo cars are not that easy to just turn up the boost. A change in either wastegate "spring" or something inline with the wastegate boost/vacuum line to alter the pressure signal is needed. With an aftermarket ECU (and possibly some stock ECUs) you can control a solenoid to open/close based on parameters (TPS, MAP, RPM, ect) but you will have to place a solenoid inline somewhere. The place I see aftermarket ECUs making more power would be in timing adjustments and fuel but, with turbo cars, supporting mods are usually needed to aid in any substantial power gains (injectors, pump, better ignition, ect). I guess I don't really see an issue with open ECU's in a street class. I see the advantages it has to offer and I think it will push more cars into the mix while making others more obsolete, in a sense.
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thrdeye
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Re: **January Fastrack News**

Post by thrdeye »

90civichb wrote:The thing is turbo cars are not that easy to just turn up the boost. A change in either wastegate "spring" or something inline with the wastegate boost/vacuum line to alter the pressure signal is needed. With an aftermarket ECU (and possibly some stock ECUs) you can control a solenoid to open/close based on parameters (TPS, MAP, RPM, ect) but you will have to place a solenoid inline somewhere. The place I see aftermarket ECUs making more power would be in timing adjustments and fuel but, with turbo cars, supporting mods are usually needed to aid in any substantial power gains (injectors, pump, better ignition, ect). I guess I don't really see an issue with open ECU's in a street class. I see the advantages it has to offer and I think it will push more cars into the mix while making others more obsolete, in a sense.
I'm no super tooner, but we sure didn't add any selenoids on the STi and the street tune was about 3 psi higher than factory.
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