Spring Nats

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John Brown
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by John Brown » Wed May 30, 2018 9:03 am

:lol:

small cars will always be at the top % of PAX... no matter how fast the over all course is. But it takes FLOW to put a big car there.

I have ran the whole spectrum in 3 years... :mrgreen:
ETR Pro Class Champion-2002-03-10-11-12-13-14-15 (the last year of SCCA course design rules)
BMW/CCA D-Mod National Road Racing Champion-2011
Pro-Solo Prepared National Champ-2004
Pro-Solo Prepared National Champ-2005
2016 Dodge Challenger SRT 6.4L CAM-C

jcox07
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by jcox07 » Wed May 30, 2018 9:13 am

There needs to be a balance of both and if a es/sts/cs car is using second gear and hitting the limiter at 52 to 59 mph and that is as fast as the cars get on those courses, imagine a 3700 pound car trying to get thru the same small gate and I agree about trying to make the turn around better, but if the rest of the course is small car minded that one or two hard turn arounds in a small car doesn't catch up the big power cars. We have to remember that all new cars now have more power than they had 15 to 20 years ago and the times of building courses for 1990 miatas or 1988 Honda civics are long gone and think of the cam class with the crazy horsepower of most all of those cars in those classes and not being able to use over a third of the go pedal. The Bristol 2017 match and champ had a even amount of small and big cars in the top 20 and that is hard to do, but it was done. Before the match tour I had several out of town small guys complain about the course and after it was over 3 out of the 5 came and said sorry man, we were wrong it was a fair course. It is hard to say, but most of the time when I walk a course I step it off and like Steve said the pro was so tight I had to take compression out of the rear shocks and go up almost 5 psi on rear tire pressure just to get the car to rotate. I still had fun but knew my car had no chance of winning at the pro or the champ tour.

EDIT: Having to shift to third gear in a Miata or es car or any small car doesn't mean its too fast of a course design.
JY ( Jeff ) Cox
2018-2020 Solo Nationals Co Chairman

steverife
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by steverife » Wed May 30, 2018 9:38 am

I get the feeling about the Pro because it is PAX, but why wouldn't your car have a chance at the Tour? Darden's car has to have pretty similar power, weight, dimensions.
'03 MR2 Spyder - PES 89
'16 FRS - PSSC 89

jcox07
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by jcox07 » Wed May 30, 2018 9:59 am

I am surprised that Bryan didn't kill all esp in the champ as it was sweeper intensive and all decreasing or increasing and my car doesn't do that very well at all and Dardens car doesn't make near the power ( at least 100 rwhp less) or torque ( at least 150 foot pounds less) that the gt500 does and he evn complained about it before the event started and was like dang I can't believe Bryan didn't kill us.
JY ( Jeff ) Cox
2018-2020 Solo Nationals Co Chairman

steverife
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by steverife » Wed May 30, 2018 10:51 am

Alright. I looked at the PAX for the tour. Looks pretty balanced to me. Top 10 had 5 mod cars, 1 low powered momentum car (CSP) and 4 big/power cars (SSR & SM GTR). Extend that to the top 25 and you add 3 more SSR cars, 2 FS cars, and 1 ESP car. I'd consider STX, STR, ES, STS and CSP to be momentum.

Top 25 is what I'd consider 10 power cars (SSR, ESP, SM GTR FS), 7 momentum cars (CSP, ES, STS, STX, STR) , and 8 smaller cars that make massive grip and power/weight (Mod & SSP Elise)
'03 MR2 Spyder - PES 89
'16 FRS - PSSC 89

jcox07
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by jcox07 » Wed May 30, 2018 10:57 am

Yes, I agree that there were some big power cars in there but 23 out of the top 100 in pax was all that was in there and I don't consider a F mod or anything like that a big car. I was referring to vettes and AS vettes were also in there not many but some, mustangs, Camaro and things 3600 pounds or close to that or heavier. Any time you have Junior karts that don't take off worth a crap as top pax like Blytheville and a couple at nationals, that is also a indicator that it is a small car course imo.
EDIT; CSP by far is not a true momentum car with the power to weight ratio they are at.
JY ( Jeff ) Cox
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thrdeye
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by thrdeye » Wed May 30, 2018 11:17 am

IMO, YMMV, and I wasn't there, but....

Here's the deal for me. I've driven some bigger cars over the years, had a couple at the school, etc. The power is fun, but there's no way I'd campaign anything "big" for autocross, with a few exceptions (Corvette being one of them). The modern Camaro and Mustangs are huge things to try and wrangle through an autocross courses. Put a different way, I like to have a car that allows me to use all of its capability as much as possible. It's more fun for me to drive a lower power car with my hair on fire than to cool my heels in a higher power car. Of course there are some high power cars in which this isn't the case so much, but I'm speaking in generalities.

The most fun courses have the highest average speed throughout, again - in my opinion, and *every* car is a momentum car. That's my philosophy anyway. Digs and turnarounds suck - even in power cars.

PAX only matters when you get into bump, and for the most part, the cars in those situations are somewhat closer in dimensions and style. And having less direct competition is the risk you take in building a higher prep car. Looking at PAX as an overall indicator of the fairness of a single course is flawed. There are too many dependencies for that to be able to work.
Chris Harp
2016 Mazda MX5 - PCS 194

jcox07
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by jcox07 » Wed May 30, 2018 11:28 am

Pax is flawed I totally agree with that, but while walking the champ tour course on my second walk a 10 time different class champion stopped me on my way by and asked and I quote, Is there any place on this course we can hit 60 mph and I said is this your first walk and he said yes and I responded nope, no where will you even get close to 60 and after enough of the bitching was done they made two changes that resulted in a better course, but pax does help tell if the course is tight or more open as no way only 23 big cars in the top 100 at any national event and it be a fair course especially with the talent of the big car drivers that were there.
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TedV
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by TedV » Wed May 30, 2018 11:48 am

Y'all just gotta learn to make them big girls dance :P :lol:

I'm over here wishing I could make events, but y'all making me think I need to fagetaboutit and find a different hobby. :? Oh wait, there's a reason I like small, high HP to weight cars. That's what all 7 of the mod cars in top 25 of PAX were. Pax, smacks..

Woohoo Scott picked up a trophy @ 3rd in KM :rockon:
Ted V.
don't make me list all my VW's

steverife
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by steverife » Wed May 30, 2018 12:01 pm

All in all, it was great.

There was a 50 something second practice course and you could take as many runs as you could stand (I couldn't stand very many). ...and you get to drive on the nats surface and measure yourself against some people you won't get to run against except at nats.
'03 MR2 Spyder - PES 89
'16 FRS - PSSC 89

MikeKelly
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by MikeKelly » Wed May 30, 2018 1:30 pm

thrdeye wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:17 am

Digs and turnarounds suck - even in power cars.
heh

"ca-thunk"

G-O-O-O-O-O-O-A-L-!-!-!

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Buck05Sti
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by Buck05Sti » Wed May 30, 2018 2:33 pm

TedV wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:48 am
Y'all just gotta learn to make them big girls dance :P :lol:

I'm over here wishing I could make events, but y'all making me think I need to fagetaboutit and find a different hobby. :? Oh wait, there's a reason I like small, high HP to weight cars. That's what all 7 of the mod cars in top 25 of PAX were. Pax, smacks..

Woohoo Scott picked up a trophy @ 3rd in KM :rockon:
Between all the recent negative feedback, and ESPECIALLY due to all the price hiking, i'd be hard pressed to do another national ever again, outside of Dixie and our Double. LeMons is looking better and better these days...
Ryan Buckingham

ASP/STM #20
2005 PSM/Gold STi

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eunos735
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by eunos735 » Wed May 30, 2018 3:24 pm

The kid in he JB kart that is getting the top pax awards is a damn good driver. He will end up being one of the best in the sport. You can't use him as a barometer.

I thought the Pro Courses were plenty open if driven correctly. (And my car is the same width as a C5 ZO6)

Day one of the Champ tour was one of my favorite courses I have driven. It rewarded patience and severely punished over driving which are two areas I struggle with A LOT.

Day 2 of the Champ tour was plenty fun once the two cones were removed. Coming back across the lot I hit 72.3 MPH so it was plenty fast enough.

Randall would have paxed 8th or 9th I think if he had ran an SSM pax.

Going to 3rd in my Miata is too fast for Solo....and we have had to do it A LOT in the last few years.

That triple digit finish at Wilmington a few years ago should have resulted in the event being protested.

I'm all for going fast.....but if we are going to move things in the direction of Solo Trials....we need to step up the safety requirements. As it is, I am already going faster than I like in a car that only has a lap belt and a 2.3lb Carbon Fiber seat :)
Last edited by eunos735 on Wed May 30, 2018 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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eunos735
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by eunos735 » Wed May 30, 2018 3:24 pm

And I can't believe you all did't talk about the best part of the trip.......The Fried Chicken in Kansas City :)
SSM #20
"This is DEFINITELY not your gay uncle's Miata"

jcox07
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Re: Spring Nats

Post by jcox07 » Wed May 30, 2018 6:36 pm

So Eric your car is 73.6 inches wide?
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2018-2020 Solo Nationals Co Chairman

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