Hypothetical Question

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Nick2500cd
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Hypothetical Question

Post by Nick2500cd »

Hi guys, my name is Nick, but I also go by Thorne (middle name) as well sometimes too, so call me whichever! Anyways, I had a quick question to ask about the legality of what I am proposing in the car classification of the SCCA. I had a huge post written up, that took so long to write I was logged out due to inactivity so when I went to post, everything was erased as it prompted me to log back in! Whoops. Anyways, I will keep it more brief and easier to read (hopefully). This is a two part question, the first being the legality and the second being the pros/cons and the reasoning behind it.


Part 1: Legality.

So, I have a 98 civic hx, with 20 year old suspension components and a drivetrain designed for maximum fuel economy, and not performance (not even sure if I have a front sway bar on that thing!!) That was the car I drove in the two events on Saturday and Sunday (which, I got to say what a weekend! special shoutout to Jim, Doug, and Kevin. You guys really helped me learn a lot, and I enjoyed hanging out with you all. I had to work Friday, saturday, and sunday from 6pm to 3am too, so not much time for sleep after the drive from knoxville but I enjoyed the heck out of it and would do it again in a heartbeat!)
I also think (more on that later) that I own a EX version as well, does not drive at the moment but it is the trim with the more powerful engine and lower geared transmission, and a sunroof!! (most important part (more on that later too)

I like the HX the way it is, it does what it does great, however, both the EX and the Si are also in HS class, and I was wondering, if I swapped over every single thing that was different between the EX and the Si, would that technically be allowed in the eyes of the SCCA?
And I mean everything. Engine, transmission, suspension and brakes. That's why I would have to do it to the ex, since, the HX, LX, EX and Si are similar, they all have power windows and locks, the Lx adds cruise control, the Ex adds a sunroof, and the Si adds all of the suspension, brakes, and higher output engine. So, I would have to do it with an EX, unless I was prepared to cut out and weld the entire roof panel (could be done I suppose!)

I learned earlier through you guys, and then again while reading the SCCA rule book, that trim specific equipment is non-transferable across trims, unless it was an option on that trim too. Makes sense now, since, while the EX and the HX are very similar, the EX has bigger brakes. I wanted to transfer that over to my HX, but, the HX is almost 200lbs lighter, and it would be giving it an advantage in braking power vs stock HX or EX.

But what if everything was changed? Down to the last standard option, the dash, the wiring, the drivetrain and all suspension components. Is that legal? the only difference between the two cars would be that one says EX, while the other would say Si (though, that could be fixed too). For all intents and purposes the cars would be identical, indistinguishable from one another in terms of weight, looks, handling, and performance.


Part 2: reasoning, pros/cons

As a 22 year old pizza delivery driver, I might not have the most money, but I do have the time. A lot of that time, I am working on cars, whether it be maintaining my own pizza slinging rigs, or working on the multitude of problems that all of my coworkers seem to be having all of the time. Luckily I kind of like doing it!! Anyways, I have the EX(technically), if I happened to find a 'wrecked beyond repair' Si (quotes because my HX was 'wrecked beyond repair, but as y'all saw did just fine on the course yesterday!) Si, most likely with some sort of frame damage making it unsafe to drive or uneconomical to repair, I could use it as a parts car to swap everything over that I could possible do. That being said, I have one in mind, it goes for auction in one month, and, if legal, I would like to get it and tackle this immense project! Getting to put that much work and effort into a car that I would then be racing seems like the way I want to spend my free time!

Pros:

Tires, the Si has 15x6 wheels, vs 14x5.5 on the other trims. that alone would allow me to run a slightly wider tire, while also opening up the door to the vast number of tires available to all of the miata people out there! I know I could go to 15x5.5 now, however, starting off with a 15x6 inch wheel would allow me to move up to 16x6 should the need arise.

Suspension, the Si has stiffer springs and roll bars, progressively valved shocks, and a factory installed strut tower brace. Those would probably be the best reason to do so, since i would have a flatter, more stable ride. This, coupled with the wider tires would help immensely I would think!

Engine, the Si also comes with a 160hp 8.2k revving monster, compared to the EX with 127, and my HX, with only 115! now, I know that is not too much of a difference in the long run, and in reality it is more about momentum then straight line acceleration, however, I can't help but think that a 7.1 second 0-60 time would help me pull out of the straights better than the 10.5 seconds it takes my HX.

Cons:

Time, this swap would be incredibly time consuming, however, I have poor judgement skills and lots of motivation (at times) so it would not be too much of an issue. Plus, I like working on these little civics! Very easy and open space. I could see myself doing this in its entirety in just one week, possibly two. (last civic i bought was a different ex coupe for a friend, he needed an engine. Didn't even take the car off the trailer, I was able to remove everything that was still intact and worth saving in two whole days, then sent the shell to the scrap yard. It weighed less than half what it did when I got it! Entire interior, including the dash and shifter, steering column, all of the brakes and master cylinder, cruise control actuator, you name it I have a spare now haha.)

Damaged parts, if I am buying a wrecked car that is so badly wrecked it goes for cheap (can not be economically repaired), there will probably be damage to certain parts of the suspension and brakes, possible engine that would need to be fixed or otherwise replaced (though, replaced with Si spec parts!)

Weight, the Si weights 108 pounds more than the EX (which also both weigh more than the HX), which is all due to the engine and transmission it has in there. The b series is just that much more heavier. I am worried that the extra weight will hurt in terms of cornering and other handling, but, would that or would it not more than otherwise just be negated by the other pros? I look forward to disusing this one!

Cost, while the car might still be non-repairable, the b16 engine and transmission are still worth something, and people who know that would probably be willing to pay more than I could afford to get their hands on it! One will only see how much it actually sells for when the auction happens.


I look forward to discussing all of this with you guys, and am looking forward to feedback. Just another note though, this is all hypothetical, and there is only a slim chance I will actually do this, if only for the reason I am not going to be able to afford the purchase price of the car should it go for sale. But, hypothetically, since I already have the time and the energy; say I had the money and it was legal...?

Thanks for reading all of this! I am going to copy and paste it somewhere since I took a while to write this up too and I don't want it to be lost (not as much as the other one though phew you should have seen it haha). Looking forward to waking up and seeing all of the replies, otherwise, have a good night!
Nick/Thorne Browning
'98 Civic HX
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by steverife »

Nick, welcome!

I think you have a pretty good understanding of the rules. For Street class, the rules require you to present a car exactly as a car could theoretically could be purchased from the factory new. I can't speak for the technical differences between the Si and the EX to comment on if it is possible to do a full 100% conversion. The cars do have to be the same model year, so your EX chassis would need to be a 99 or 00 model.

Before committing too much to a project like this, I'd recommend determining your goals with the sport and cars in general. You might be better off waiting a while and planning a different project/purchase.
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by Teufelshund »

Good to see you out last weekend, Nick.

I'm not sure about the rules for Street Class in reference to making one legal car into another legal configuration. I've never heard of anyone doing it, but I don't really know why it would be a problem if, as Steve said, it ended up in a configuration available from the factory.

If you enjoy working on cars, you may want to consider a long-term build that allows you to make more modifications as you get the time/money. I would suggest that you look into the FSP or SMF rules and see if that's something you might be interested in.
Brian Robbins
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by MARKP »

Welcome Nick! Awesome to see that you are reading the rulebook and thinking ahead. Honestly, not many new people do that.

The tricky thing about what you want to do, which Steve mentioned, is you have to get everything correct for the car you want to build. For example, if you are building an Si, and there is some kind of brace under the dashboard that only an Si had, you have to have it.

I would encourage you to run the HX for a year and have fun and learn a lot. Take a look around and see what people are running and what class you might want to compete in. That might give you a better idea of where you want to be. Not saying that building an Si might not be a lot of fun but you might find you want to do something different after you have been running a few more events. Based on how you started off, you will probably do well wherever you decide you want to run.
Mark Pilson
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Stingon
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by Stingon »

I converted my 1999 miata base to a 99 hard-s... It would have saved me a ton of $ if I had bought a hard-s...

++ to waiting a bit before making any big changes...
Doug Porter

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Nick2500cd
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by Nick2500cd »

That's cool to know that it is legal! If the needed ever arose for some reason. But, I can say I am not going to worry about it now, the wrecked Si that started me thinking about this whole this is so badly damaged, that the amount of money put spent vs improvements would just be too much! I will be checked out those other classes later too, I think it would be very cool if I had a build going on too, sometime in the future, when I have decided the class I want to officially run in, should I step up.
Here's a link to the car if anyone is wondering haha: https://www.copart.com/lot/26947129

I think, that if any improvements were to be made between now and the next event, that tires would be the way to go, followed by the rear sway bar and then shocks (possibly the other way around, what do you guys think?) Since I am on a budget, I will most likely be scouring the junkyard for a used set of performance or summer tires. Potentially also upgrading the rims from 14x5.5 to 15x5.5, if I can find a decent set. Anything would be better than a mismatched set from "milestar" and "vee rubber", both with over 500 on the treadwear rating!! (I have got to say, the vee rubbers were the worst. nothing but understeer when I had them in the front, so I swapped the rears and the fronts and adjusted my tire pressures before the last lap, and that's when I spun out twice!)

Who knows! maybe I'll find a used set of Konis while I'm looking for tires. That would be a score! Otherwise, I will just focus on getting some more seat time and learning how to handle my loose goose of a car :D
Nick/Thorne Browning
'98 Civic HX
michael.plaster
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by michael.plaster »

Seat time is definitely going to be your best investment.

Have you bought from Copart before?
Michael Plaster
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by steverife »

15's will really open up your options for used performance tires.

Shocks versus bar? Depends on shock condition, but I'd tend to do shocks (unless I found a super cheap bar). You can do things to make a car rotate without a rear bar. You can't really do things to improve damping without a shock upgrade.
'16 FRS - PSTX 97
Nick2500cd
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by Nick2500cd »

Man, all those basketball games made it crazy in the pizza business ha! Anyways, I wish there were more test and tunes, that would be a great way to get some more seat time. For now I guess I will just have to go to every event!

And oh yes, I love Copart. Almost all of my cars I have bought from them, and last Wednesday I actually spent the day driving to the Copart down in Cartersville, Georgia (it stinks that you have to have a dealers license to buy from a Copart here in TN) to pick up another car! Love working on them. And I also love the discount you get from buying a damaged car and fixing it up! I just need to learn how to paint them.

I am off the next couple of days (spring break for UT so slow now!) so I will get to go and see if I can't find a set of tires somewhere. I also ordered some shocks, and some new stock springs, since mine were sagging in the rear. Between that and the tires I can't wait to see the difference in handling!
Nick/Thorne Browning
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by ConeEater »

If you're looking for seat time... Look at other regions of you have the time to travel a little.
You can not only get more time in the car but also see what other regions do and a bigger scope of car choices, classes that are populated and people.
At one point in a year, I ran 4 different regions/clubs and did 25 events.

By comparison.. I did 2 events last year. Lol
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Nick2500cd
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by Nick2500cd »

So, I got some of the parts in, but one in particular confuses me. I ordered some new front sway bar end link bushings, part # 46G0036A
I used rock auto for this, and the bushing material said rubber, and the color said black. But the bushings I got were blue! I have looked online and it seems people from amazon have had the same "issue" where they receive blue bushings. Has anyone ever heard of a blue rubber bushing? Or was I sent poly bushings on accident that I couldn't use if I wanted to stay in HS class (I want to get a rear sway bar, and can't modify the front one if I use these, potentially?) The blue bushing also has a part number on it, 261610, but searching for that turned up nothing for me.
Nick/Thorne Browning
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by MARKP »

I have never seen a blue rubber bushing. If it is rubber, you should be able to press on it with a large screwdriver and get it to compress a little. If it is polyurethane, you might be able to make a little indentation in it if you really try.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Mark Pilson
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Nick2500cd
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by Nick2500cd »

Alright, so I almost have the car ready to go, I just have a few final things to finish today! In regards to the bushings, when i used my needle nose pliers the bushings were very easily compress-able, so I guess it is just blue rubber. I also was able to finally find some 15x5.5 rims after a lot of searching, with only a +6mm offset from a factory civic. The front tires already have some really good looking Kumho tires with a 400ish tread-wear rating and a AA for traction and another A for temp, so I am excited to see how those compare to the tires I had on the car last event. But for the other two, I now have to decide between either a nearly bald Eagle Sport with 560AA, or a really old (ten years I think, showing slight signs of cracking on the sidewall) Goodyear Tripletreds with 740AB. I feel like I am focusing on too small of things and they will probably be the same performance wise, since the nearly bald tire has been through so many heat cycles, and the other is just old and stiff in general. What do you guys think? Maybe I should just keep the 14s on the back with those Milestars haha.
Nick/Thorne Browning
'98 Civic HX
Nick2500cd
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Re: Hypothetical Question

Post by Nick2500cd »

After looking closer at the Tripletreds, they have way more cracking then previously noticed, lets just say I wouldn't feel safe driving on them long term and under the stress of autocross I don't want them to blow out. I'll stick with the bald eagles for now!
Nick/Thorne Browning
'98 Civic HX
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