CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

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John Brown
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by John Brown »

I been thinking the same thing Jim.... its not hard to find sanctioning bodies that like power and noise..

and.. I'll add, that if they gave CAM the same structure all other classes have.. they wouldn't consider them slow since they would be killin PAX most of the time.
no class that constantly wins PAX is mocked for being "slow" .. that I know of. :mrgreen:


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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by TedV »

steverife wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:57 am Man, after hearing that Corvair that ran at Bristol years ago, I don't!
Other Corvair owners complained about the noise of that car too. Noise is power, no?? :roll:
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by eunos735 »

I don't know a single person who doesn't at least like the idea of CAM.

What most of the people who dont like CAM as implemented are unhappy with is all the "special treatment" for a supplemental class.

All they are saying is a) Stop shoving it in our faces(i.e. Cam invitational that used to happen at Nationals....huge distraction and huge waste of space, the CAM events within normal national tour where 75% of the awards presentation is about CAM........but it's fun to laugh at them when they are outran by the stock (street) variant of the same car :)
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John Brown
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by John Brown »

well... that may be a character flaw in mustangs.. and camaros.. I doubt you will EVER encounter a stock Challenger out perform my car. :lol:
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by jcox07 »

If you take the top mustang and Camaro in f street from nationals which was 15th and 16th place they were almost 6 seconds slower than the Camaro that won cam c, I don't care if cam has an invitational at nationals or not. They can have one and it will not interfere with any part of nationals if done right. It is something that I have asked to come back at nationals as it is all about fun and that goes a long ways in the fun factor. I don't care much about cam getting a set of rules that is different as if we wanted the same set of rules we could easily get that and it truly is that simple.
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by MARKP »

I will never build a CAM car to the ruleset, mainly due to my personal budget constraints.

I enjoy competing in the class locally with an underprepped car. I enjoy the CAM national events. I enjoy going to see what everyone else built, from the turbo Ford Falcon Wagon, to Dan's big block 69 Camaro. If people are enjoying it, why crap on it? General poking fun at each other for driving a girly Miata or a modified Z06 that's slower than an AS car can be fun as long as it is good natured.

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eunos735
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by eunos735 »

Is saying you want it to be a real class and be treated like the other 953 classes "crapping on it?"
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by MARKP »

The people that created it and most of the people thst run in it have no interest in making it a national class, or so they have said. I would submit that they have already gone pretty far down that path. However, I would agree that making it a national class would probably lead to its demise.

I took, " Stop shoving it in our faces(i.e. Cam invitational that used to happen at Nationals....huge distraction and huge waste of space, the CAM events within normal national tour where 75% of the awards presentation is about CAM........but it's fun to laugh at them when they are outran by the stock (street) variant of the same car " as crapping on it. Sorry if I misunderstood.

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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by steverife »

I don't really care if it is a national class or not. I don't really care about an extra award or two or extra time at the banquet.

I'm going to be salty when I go to nats and have to deal with sound warnings at around 100 and CAM Invitational cars don't have to adhere to a sound limit and are some are probably blowing over 110, like the first year they got to run during the Finale.

I'm going to be salty when the Finale shares space with that event and it craps up visuals on one side and may or may not impact the quality of the courses.

I'm going to be salty when I have to work a longer assignment for a CAM Shootout after a regular event.

I would expect people to be salty if whatever class I chose to run received the same kind of extras.

I like the cars, though it isn't really something I'd want to autocross.
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by jcox07 »

With that said Steve, their are a lot of folks that choose to run cam and it is only going to get bigger, but it can be done without making visuals bad in the pro finale with the cam invitational and that is easily done as a lot of folks think the same thing about those that get in the pro finale even tho it is a you must score enough points or attend enough events. The I don't want to drive one is personal preference and their are a lot of folks that choose big cars over little cars and I don't see it changing any time in the future. If I had to get a small car to auto cross, I personally wouldn't auto cross any more and would just run optima or something of that nature. I get it that it is everyone's personal choice of the car they drive but I don't get the issue with cam either, like I said earlier if it is the rules that pisses people off, write your letter to the board of directors asking for a complete change and overhaul of how things are done and help get folks in the seb that have the best interest in the sport for all and change how the rules read, I do think the rules need a complete overhaul a long with a completely new seb.
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by thrdeye »

Yep it's personal preference. Autocrosing a CAM car seems like trying to fit a golf ball through a garden hose, and I think we've seen the "solution" to that play out in our local courses.

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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by jcox07 »

Cam car or esp car or f street non bmw car and A street car, still a lot of big cars auto crossing but etr pro championship was still won by a e street Miata even with the courses we ran.
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by eunos735 »

Look. Here's my take. I pay the same membership fee as a CAM driver. I pay the same entry fee to an event as a CAM driver. Why does CAM get to play by a separate set of rules? AND get coddled with all the special treatment?

I'm not at all talking about the local level. I'm talking about Nationality.

If my event is marginalized (in the ways Steve described above) by the coddling of CAM, then the least CAM could do is step up and be a real class.

If becoming a real class would lead to the demise of CAM....then there is your answer about the viability of CAM.

If CAM isn't going to step up and be a real class, then give up all the coddling.

And if that doesn't work...there's always Good Guys.
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by randallwilcox »

On the local level, the CAM classes make more sense, but it can be accomplished with the more inclusive STM. CAM started out with so much promise. I loved the initial idea of 3000lbs, 200tw tires...that's it. Then the crying and whining came in (I can't compete with this car and that car...) and ruined it by adding more rules and more classes in typical SCCA fashion. And now it's turning into a pax class of all 3 CAM classes at most of the events I see, which I would find frustrating because not many full CAM builds exist to provide meaningful pax data. I think pax is fun, but I don't enjoy competing on pax at a National level (though is seems that's almost unavoidable in Prosolo now).

The special treatment of CAM is irritating for the reasons that both Steve and Eric mention. But my biggest problem with CAM is that it has poached a substantial number of entries in the SP and SM categories, resulting in many people viewing SM/SP as dying classes. However, I don't think they are dying. I think a bunch of people who were mid-pack (or lower) in SM/SP bailed to CAM because they thought they might be more competitive there. And they might be for a couple of seasons in its infancy. Then the serious builds with serious drivers will establish themselves, and those that weren't competitive before won't be competitive in yet another expensive builders class. Make no mistake, CAM will turn into the same amount of work and cost as SM, if only because it also pays some contingency at the National level. And eventually those same people who were not competitive in SM/SP or CAM might just come back to SM/SP because it's better to be midpack and fast, than midpack an slow.

What I really don't get about CAM is, why would anybody want to do all that work and spend all that money on their bad ass car, and then put slow tires on it? Hoosiers last almost as long as the current street tires with a codriver, and go 1.5 - 2 seconds faster. And BTW, anybody who suggests a CAM race tire class deserves to get kicked in the balls. We already have about 10 of those.
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Re: CAM Classes suck. Why would anyone want to be in one?

Post by Broomwagon »

After several weeks of cogitation and study on the original post and all subsequent responses, I feel compelled to type (seriously, I read the CAM rules and a lot of Fastrack. Lots of wicked sarcasm in the SEB replies.)

I think the C8 Corvette, the Corvair and the Fiero need a new CAM class. Also the Ford GT can be included, but I don't think it's a real car as I've never seen one.

I propose CAM ?. The question mark is silent, CAM ? will be spoken only as a question by all announcers, participants and by-standers. Quizzical expressions are required when stating this class at registration and tech, lest you be disqualified for not understanding the nuance of an American built automobile with "european" sensibilities. The exception is that the owner can utter CAM ! or CAM it! when something untoward happens. Like fire.

The only additional requirement for CAM ? is that you have to have a functional fire extinguisher, especially as I've observed that Ferrari=mid engine=fire. The Fiero did nothing to dispel that notion.

I hope this adds to the discussion.🤨
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