Regional #5 Administrative

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dewittpayne
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Regional #5 Administrative

Post by dewittpayne »

I'm not sure anyone but me is aware of just how bad things were.

Here's the statistics:

Race group 1, 24 entries, 118 timed runs, 7 DNF's
Race group 2, 32 entries, 79 timed runs, 24 DNF's, 5 no times due to DNF all runs.

That's a 6% DNF rate in race group 1 compared to a 30% rate in race group 2.

Does anyone besides me see a pattern here?

This is why a walk through between race groups isn't just a good idea, it's necessary. Four hours between walking the course and driving is just too long for a regional event. It's especially hard on novices. Do you really think that someone who doesn't even get a time is going to be motivated to continue? It's not going to stop me, but I've been an SCCA flagger for over 40 years. I'm clearly certifiable.

(whine) It's a little inconsistent to tell me I should have walked the course more and then accuse me of whining when I mention that I couldn't because the course was finished late.(/whine)

Another reason to have course maps, btw, is that they are a resource for future course designers. The 'electronic gizmo' can give you a course map overlaid on a Google Earth image of the parking lot within a few minutes and a few keystrokes of finishing a course walk. Or, given that the painted lines on the lot are a great grid reference, the cone locations could be plotted on an image and the course drawn in. I can bring my laptop to the next event and demonstrate.

If we go back to #4, I count a total of 40 DNF's in 315 runs with 16 DNF's in the first timed run and nobody failed to get a time because of DNF's. Unfortunately, I don't remember which classes were in group 1 and which in group 2 for that event.
Last edited by dewittpayne on Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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thrdeye
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by thrdeye »

There are a few things that we do to try to help new folks.

1 - novice walkthroughs and a novice chief. Now, I don't know if you actually watch these course walks or not, but more often than not, folks are chatting it up with their buddies instead of listening.
2 - We allow passengers. Anyone can ride with anyone else, even pro drivers (some P drivers will even let you ride on one of the first 3 runs).
3 - We draw notes on the pavement.

Course maps are not realistic for us. They take hours of work to be worth anything at all, and even then, they are HARDLY ever completely accurate by the time you get the course setup. Your best bet is to bring a pad of paper and make your own.

Course walk between heats equals a solid 45 min - 1 hour that is lost. People will leave and think they can go get lunch, etc. Honestly, no one wants to stay on site and extra hour for teardown.

The biggest thing is this:

You don't have to walk the course to walk the course. If you are not visualizing between or before runs, then you are losing opportunities to go faster. This is hard to do. You have to slow your mind down to move at the same speed as the car, otherwise your mental drive through the course is over in 15 seconds. Slow down your mind, and rewind your brain if you start getting ahead of yourself during mental coursewalks.

Also, regarding your data....pro ran first. That's a huge chunk of people that know exactly what they are doing. That contributes to your numbers in a big way.
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by jcox07 »

Dewitt, if you ever go to a national event with 300 people and 5 run groups, you will get a walk after the 2nd group is done. That is about 125 cars and 4-5 hours. We have 55 people and 2 run groups. It is more about new people dnfing, which is expected because they are new and those that DO NOT pay enough attention to the course. I walked the course one time and did not design it, yes I was in the first group but if you focus on the course and nothing else you WILL do better, leave every thing else in the car and just walk I guarantee you will do better. We can not draw out course maps for pelli due to the closeness of the island and poles since we most of the time go over the same upper or lower half more than once before going up or down the hill. We can look at trying to put more classes with first timers in the first run group, but it is no guarantee. It is about walking the course and looking at entry and exit of each turn. Until you do that, you may continue to have dnf's.
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dewittpayne
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by dewittpayne »

Jeff,

I DNF'd once in six runs at Smokies Stadium and that was from going too fast and running off the course. I DNF'd twice at #4, but not on my first run. I was trying to go faster and forgot to concentrate on my marks. The problem with #5 this year and Adesa last year was that it was difficult for me to pick out the marks. I made a different mistake every run. Apparently it was difficult for a lot of other people too.

It's easier for some people to visualize than it is for others. I, for example, cannot learn to do something like a swimming flip turn, vibrato on a violin or a basketball layup by watching someone else do it. Some bridge players can remember every hand they've ever played. Professional race drivers can learn a new course in just a few laps even without simulators. It takes me longer.
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by jcox07 »

I get that Dewitt, that is why you need to focus on walking the course the way you think your car can drive it. Think about how fast you are going to be entering the turn and where you want your car to be upon entering and the same thing on exiting, where you think the car should be in relationship with putting power to the rear wheels upon exiting that turn. You need to leave all the power of the dark side alone and focus upon becoming the jedi autocrosser.
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by dewittpayne »

[Course maps] take hours of work to be worth anything at all, and even then, they are HARDLY ever completely accurate by the time you get the course setup.
You probably replied before I edited my first post. I can do a course map without pylons with a minute or so to download the file and a few keystrokes after a course walk. I wandered around a bit so I could do a lot better if I were trying.

Image
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by dewittpayne »

Let's take out Pro. That's 34 timed runs and no DNF's (Lee Graser actually ran in group 2).

group 1 (-pro), 84 timed runs, 7 DNF's. That's 8% instead of 6%. Not a huge difference, and more like the average of event #4.

As far as a course walk taking 45 minutes, it doesn't have too. Not everyone would do it and most of the drivers are already out on the course so they wouldn't have to walk far. A slow walk of the course took me 16 minutes. Ten to twelve would be more like it, especially since the finish line was close to the paddock. I would say twenty minutes at the outside, and that's for a long course. That might be ten or so minutes longer than it already takes to get everyone off the course. We sat around on the grid waiting for the run to start longer than that.
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by dewittpayne »

jcox07 wrote:I get that Dewitt, that is why you need to focus on walking the course the way you think your car can drive it. Think about how fast you are going to be entering the turn and where you want your car to be upon entering and the same thing on exiting, where you think the car should be in relationship with putting power to the rear wheels upon exiting that turn. You need to leave all the power of the dark side alone and focus upon becoming the jedi autocrosser.
I need to be able to find my marks before I can do that. Some courses it aren't a problem. There was something about this course that was confusing and not just to me. Maybe I can take my GoPro and hold it at my eye level when I'm in the car and have it shoot at about a lower frame rate when I'm walking the course.
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by John Brown »

I think Iv DNF'd 2 times in the last 10 years.. both this year,and both after a night of drinking whipped vodka. Now I got to thinkin bout this and it proves to me one thing.




...stick to cold beers. :mrgreen:
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by John Brown »

dewittpayne wrote:Let's take out Pro. That's 34 timed runs and no DNF's (Lee Graser actually ran in group 2).

group 1 (-pro), 84 timed runs, 7 DNF's. That's 8% instead of 6%. Not a huge difference, and more like the average of event #4.

As far as a course walk taking 45 minutes, it doesn't have too. Not everyone would do it and most of the drivers are already out on the course so they wouldn't have to walk far. A slow walk of the course took me 16 minutes. Ten to twelve would be more like it, especially since the finish line was close to the paddock. I would say twenty minutes at the outside, and that's for a long course. That might be ten or so minutes longer than it already takes to get everyone off the course. We sat around on the grid waiting for the run to start longer than that.

Since this is a huge burden on ya soul dewitt... why don't you add up the total first 3 runs of everybody in each group..and I think you will find that the first group were a lot more "seasoned" drivers../not just the Pro class..

not to mention we ran in the dry vs wet.. its sometimes hard to stop/slow in the slick and that causes an off course..to me which is different than a DNF..but nets the same credits. :lol:
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by steverife »

DeWitt, I know that you put in a lot of time and effort to learn the course. Focus and effort aren't the issue.

Personally, I don't set out to memorize courses. When I have, I find myself more likely to lose my way. I don't think I could learn the course if I attacked it the way you do. I suspect that you get bogged down by details. I learn the general shape and I focus on where I need to look. Yesterday's course had a couple of blind turns (the start and the near turnaround on the lower side of the lot) and a few more places where my focal point was hidden in a "sea of cones". It was important for me to not only know which cone I needed to focus on, but at what point I'd be able to find it.
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by dewittpayne »

It was important for me to not only know which cone I needed to focus on, but at what point I'd be able to find it.
Exactly, especially the finding it part. Heyward Wagner tried to drill that into me at the EVO school at Atlanta. Apparently it didn't take.
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by dewittpayne »

John Brown,

Only the last few drivers in group 2 made their third run in the wet. The first two were as dry as for group 1.
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by John Brown »

oh.. well, I guess it was just a case of not knowing where they were going then. I was hoping it was weather related.. :?

Listen to Rife... I see folks out on course with pens and paper,thinking wtf... When you see a tricky spot.. put your eyes at ride level and look at the entry till it burns a picture in your brain... you remember that spot when your at speed.. your taking in too much data writing all that shit down...

so,tell me...what do you write down or think when walking course?? :?
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Re: Regional #5 Administrative

Post by integra55 »

dewittpayne wrote:I'm not sure anyone but me is aware of just how bad things were.

Here's the statistics:

Race group 1, 24 entries, 118 timed runs, 7 DNF's
Race group 2, 32 entries, 79 timed runs, 24 DNF's, 5 no times due to DNF all runs.

That's a 6% DNF rate in race group 1 compared to a 30% rate in race group 2.

Does anyone besides me see a pattern here?

This is why a walk through between race groups isn't just a good idea, it's necessary. Four hours between walking the course and driving is just too long for a regional event. It's especially hard on novices. Do you really think that someone who doesn't even get a time is going to be motivated to continue? It's not going to stop me, but I've been an SCCA flagger for over 40 years. I'm clearly certifiable.

(whine) It's a little inconsistent to tell me I should have walked the course more and then accuse me of whining when I mention that I couldn't because the course was finished late.(/whine)

Another reason to have course maps, btw, is that they are a resource for future course designers. The 'electronic gizmo' can give you a course map overlaid on a Google Earth image of the parking lot within a few minutes and a few keystrokes of finishing a course walk. Or, given that the painted lines on the lot are a great grid reference, the cone locations could be plotted on an image and the course drawn in. I can bring my laptop to the next event and demonstrate.

If we go back to #4, I count a total of 40 DNF's in 315 runs with 16 DNF's in the first timed run and nobody failed to get a time because of DNF's. Unfortunately, I don't remember which classes were in group 1 and which in group 2 for that event.
Dewitt ... I don't think switching the run groups around would have helped ... (that would negate your idea of extra walk time) ... why ? because the 1st run group included the Pro group ... that right there would have changed the % of DNF's .... if the second run group had gone first the % of DNF's would have been pretty close to the same ... if someone is having problems driving the course they need to ask for help

or do as I suggest when I'm coaching novices ... i.e. drive the first run (especially since we get 5 - 6 run) VERY VERY slowly .... drive as though your granny is riding in the passenger seat .. with no seat belt .... holding your infant child in her lap .... in other words if it's a 70 sec course, a novice should take 90 - 100 sec to go around the first time ... that way you actually find the course (because of how different the course looks behind the wheel compared to when walking ... each run after that you increase your pace ...

I've had very good success with this method .... took someone in his late 50's in a Bullet Mustang on his first a-x ever (actually his first ever motorsports event ever) ... he went faster each run, and ended up winning novice that day .... his response was that he could never have made it around the course without following my advice .....

sadly, not many are willing to do like I tell them .... I try my best to follow my own advice (not quite that slowly ... but still use the first run as a throw away/find the course run)

but really ... the first run groups DNF % were seriously affected by having the pro class taking up a portion of that run group
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