Regional #5 Administrative

[TedV]

Dewitt, Thank you for volunteering to be the ETR cartographer. I'm not sure how easy it will be to quickly draw in all the cones exactly where they are placed once the course is official tho. I have used a sports tracking app to jog my memory so I can look at it and see what the rhythm of a section is if I just can't help my brain fade.

I'm right at 6' and I know because of the elevation changes at PSTCC I have to get to eye level of me in the vehicle I'm driving to see what the course looks like. Basically, It will look different walking than it will driving. I've keyed off trees, light poles, houses, even just a blind, " I have to have the car pointed over there" so that when I get there I'm lined up how I need to be.

::edit:: the kart DNF's were from mechanical problems.

[dewittpayne]

oh.. well, I guess it was just a case of not knowing where they were going then. I was hoping it was weather related..

Listen to Rife... I see folks out on course with pens and paper,thinking wtf... When you see a tricky spot.. put your eyes at ride level and look at the entry till it burns a picture in your brain... you remember that spot when your at speed.. your taking in too much data writing all that shit down...

so,tell me...what do you write down or think when walking course??

I don't write. I do try to think about which cones I need to look for when. Perhaps I should write that down. A can of gold spray paint might help too

[dewittpayne]

::edit:: the kart DNF's were from mechanical problems.

The kart wasn't listed in the final results so those DNF's weren't part of the count. That's the sixth 'no time' that I missed.

[dewittpayne]

Key cones is where a course map would help. You don't have to put all the cones on the course map, just the ones that are critical, like the cone at the exit of the hairpin turn after the start which had to be taken on the left. That was the start of at least one of my DNF's..

[Wheelman_13]

As a neutral observer here, I don't think this is an event-flow problem, and I don't think a map would help. I personally wouldn't take a map if we did offer them. Would I turn down an extra course walk if I were running second: nope. Do I support one: nope. Why? Because only the people who aren't really the problem would take advantage. Your typical serial DNF-er would be at McDonalds, or sitting in the shade, or socializing.

Now, Let's look at some stats beyond this last event:

First: In the ~7 years I've been at this, the only times we've had re-walks are where the course has legitimately changed between morning and afternoon for the "double course" events that occasionally happen (so maybe ~3-5 total in that time). I've run 1st, I've run 2nd, and I've run 3rd after working for 2 hours, and sitting around for 2 hours back in the 3-heat days of yore.

Second: I just counted (don't worry John, I only counted for me, I hadn't read the 2 DNF in 10 year claim until after I'd been through every event since '06 when I started ).....I've DNF'd exactly 12 times in my entire career including the 2 mechanical DNFs with the Jurassic Geo two events ago. I can also say with no ego that a percentage of those were from trying hard and losing the car. I can distinctly remember being legitimately LOC (Lost-On-Course) maybe 3-5 times EVER.

Finally, and not to rub it in DeWitt, but you DNF'd 10 times last season out of 6 events you ran. That's an average of almost 2 per-event-attended (not quite).

The first step to fixing it, is admitting you have a problem

IMO that DNF-rate points to something in your preparation routine that needs to change. I know you've tried a few things. I think I've even seen you going as far as setting GPS markers on a course for your data logger.

Maybe that's it though, to Steve's point, you could be losing the forest for the trees. From a development standpoint, if I were throwing away 2 runs per event, my only focus would be on completing the course on EVERY run at EVERY event. Once I'd gotten that part down for, say, 5 events in a row....then I'd start looking at where I was speed-wise. (to finish first, you first must finish).

Have you considered picking someone who's consistent (and fast hopefully) and shadowing their morning routine entirely? That's how I figured out my routine. Barring restroom stops and eavesdropping on phone calls, I tried to watch what McCrary and Carpenter were doing before an event. They drove an MR2 and killed everyone. I drove an MR2 and didn't...can't beat them, join them right?!

[dewittpayne]

If I'm going to be cartographer, I need to know which parking lot at Bristol is the one we're using so I can bring a few printed copies with me.

[Wheelman_13]

If I'm going to be cartographer, I need to know which parking lot at Bristol is the one we're using so I can bring a few printed copies with me.

Someone should get Scott Gibson to chime in here as well on how many times the course designer's plan on Saturday evening actually makes it to 11:30am Sunday morning without at least small changes . Also, there's no such thing as a "small change" to an autocross course. Move one cone 3 feet and the key cone quotient goes straight out the window. Usually these guys only have general plan when they show up at 6-7am to start setting up cones.

[CABoegemann]

When I have walked the course several times and I'm still not sure about a particular section, and I'm running second, I go straight to the worker jerk and see if I can work the course in that section. It helps a lot to watch other drivers go through a section you're not sure of. You can get an idea of how fast to enter, from what angle, where to brake, what works, what doesn't, etc.

As far as course maps, I hate them. No better way to ruin a course than to draw it out and then stick to the drawing. A rough draft is a good idea, but test driving a course and making the appropriate changes is a MUCH better idea. How well a course flows effects everything. How safe the course is, how much fun it is to drive, even how many DNF's you have. You can't make a course flow on paper, at least I can't.

$.02

[Scoob]

An even better method, if you want to draw a course, is to try to draw it from memory right after you finish your walks in the morning. That forces you to really think about the whole course and you should be able to draw at least the key cones on your drawing. If you can't, walk it again.

This was the first autox in 5 years I've done without my (11 yr old) son who was still vacationing in California yesterday. I drew him the course map from memory this morning and because he's driven there once (#1 this year) he could visualize what the course looked like and commented about the speeds, etc, in a few of the sections.

If we could get the show on the road earlier (an 11:20 start when the sun rose at 6:00?) we would have time for a course walk between if it was that big of a deal. Worker changeover between the two heats was already way too long. Honestly I don't see it being a big help and more people would head to Mickey D's than actually walk. All that time could be used for another run or two. Seat time is much more valuable to novices than a lunch break.

[dewittpayne]

Not to rub it in DeWitt, but you DNF'd 10 times last season out of 6 events you ran. That's an average of almost 2 per-event-attended (not quite).

The first step to fixing it, is admitting you have a problem

You missed a few, it was actually 16 in 9 events in 2012, I ran in tire class for the first two. But four of them were at #11 and 3 at #12 so it's actually about 1/event if I'm not getting lost. At Chilhowee, which didn't count for points because I only ran one day, the DNF was when I spun at the bottom of the hill and got in the grass. As far as I'm concerned, a DNF is not really worse than a cone as long as it's not because I don't know where I'm supposed to be going. My problem is that on some courses, I just get lost.

[dewittpayne]

If I'm going to be cartographer, I need to know which parking lot at Bristol is the one we're using so I can bring a few printed copies with me.

Someone should get Scott Gibson to chime in here as well on how many times the course designer's plan on Saturday evening actually makes it to 11:30am Sunday morning without at least small changes . Also, there's no such thing as a "small change" to an autocross course. Move one cone 3 feet and the key cone quotient goes straight out the window. Usually these guys only have general plan when they show up at 6-7am to start setting up cones.

The map would be created from a course walk with a GPS data logger after the layout was completed. You do know that in some regions, the course is laid out and the cone positions marked the day before the event.

The points where I put the data logger down on the course were to mark split points on the course as well as the start and finish lines. It has helped me go faster at some events by showing, for example, where I'm nowhere near the lateral acceleration capability of the car, where I'm not using enough throttle and where I'm using too much. But, of course, that only helps if I'm confident I know where I'm going. If I lose that confidence by getting hopelessly lost, it's really hard to get it back. Yes, so don't get lost, I know. Easier said than done, by me at least.

[joker717]

I have a question, when is the novice walk usually held? This was my second event (first was the smokies stadium which the novice walk was held after driver meeting) Some one on the other thread said it went on before the meeting. Regardless that is where I was planning on asking alot of questions without disturbing anyone walk-through. I followed around McCrary once trying to watch his line (which I dont think a cart line would transfer well to a 3600# boat of a car) I also walked with a guy named scott which was very helpful, but I was still looking forward to the novice walk which I missed. ( think it might have started while I was on the bottom side finishing a walkthrough

[joker717]

BTW Even though I only got 2 runs in(both DNF's ) I still had a great time working and learning new things.

[John Brown]

course map is the most usless thing in the world unless you just need to get the direction of flow..

dewitt... let me tell you just one time how to do this.. one time. No matter what you hear or what your told.. this is the ONLY way you will over come...

Walk the course.. 2-4 turns at a time.. STOP! close your eyes and run the course to that point in your head. IF you cant remember those 2-4 turns and segments..go back and re do it. When you got that..go another 2-4 turns or sections..STOP!! close your eyes..and go to the start again,putting the segments together.
Do this until you can see the complete course in your mind..at the speed you need to be traveling at the time. IF .. IF!! you cant see every apex turn in your head,and do a complete run in your mind.. YOU DO NOT HAVE IT~!@! period.

now..you Pros and fast guys... am I lying or tellin this guy the truth in auto cross???

You can do it differently..and you may not get lost.. but,you will never be fast until the only thing you think about on course is not where do I go next..but how much time did I just leave on the table in that last section????

[TedV]

Someone should get Scott Gibson to chime in here as well on how many times the course designer's plan on Saturday evening actually makes it to 11:30am Sunday morning without at least small changes

Since 1991, I have been to exactly zero events where a map was drawn to scale or nothing changed.

John speaks the truth. the section you are in sets you up for the next section.

If you DNF'd the cone after the U turn at the start, you messed up on the straight section of the start. You position the car there to put you on the correct side of the pointer cone.