The Autocrossing Tips Thread

[dewittpayne]

JB,

I've been standing on corners flagging club and pro races for nearly 50 years. I think I can tell the difference between a car taking an inside line on a corner that would normally be a late apex for passing or to prevent being passed, Turn 1 at Summit or VIR, and a true early apex on a slow corner leading onto a long straight, Turn 7 at Road Atlanta. An inside line on a late apex corner is slower. The trick is to not pass the other guy too soon or he'll pass you back coming out of the turn. I've seen a lot of both. Strictly speaking, the clipping point on the inside of the corner is not necessarily the apex, the point of maximum lateral acceleration, either. If you haven't already started rolling onto the throttle before the clipping point at 7 at Road Atlanta, you're going to be slow.

Most of the time autocrossing, that's irrelevant. As he says:

Usually it’s best to simply take the shortest path from one to the next,

[integra55]

Interesting.

I don't agree with the post on (almost) never late apexing, though. For example, unlike what he says, in road racing you don't late apex a corner leading onto a straight, you take an early apex to get on the gas sooner. You late apex the corner at the end of the straight, assuming that corner doesn't lead onto another straight.

in ALL my years and laps at 90% of the tracks East of the Mississippi.. Iv never found a reason to early apex. When I was forced to.. (inside pass,late), it almost 100% of the time led me to find all that stuff on the outside of the corner... LOL! as I watched the guy I passed.. motor back ahead of me.

I'm nowhere near as experienced or as good as JB … but I was taught to early apex T10 at VIR … or at least hit the earliest part of the rumble strips …

T5 at Road Atlanta is another one where I was taught that I could sorta early apex because of all the track out room

but like I said, my resume doesn't compare to JB's

[John Brown]

In the world of road racing ..there are two theories.
Class room lines ..the ones that the schools teach you..
And the lap record, going for the win, real world lines.

Winners absolutely despise trying to pass a classroom driver.
Truth.
Those lines you refer to Walter are normal apex corners.. not early, not late.
I don't care who you are.. if you early apex any corner of speed.. you will either have to over slow to stay on course.. or go off the outside..
early is a relative term.. if the exit allows a normal apex ..then, it's normal.. not early. think about it. Why would you ever early apex, except to pass.. block? ?

[John Brown]

And Autocross apex stuff.. where you get on the throttle has nothing to do with where the apex is.. however, you will never see a successful racer of any kind that does not pass the apex line on almost full throttle..

[dewittpayne]

JB,

I wouldn't have objected to the blog post if it had been titled 'Never Early-Apex', because that's what he actually seemed to be talking about.

I'm not talking about classroom either, although I may be using classroom terms. It's direct observation of many hours of actual racers with a wide range of experience level from F1 to SCCA drivers school. I can still almost see Bertil Roos driving his under two liter Can-Am car through turn 7 at Road Atlanta back in the early 1970's. As the car came up the hill from 6, it would start to rotate. Not turn in much, he was still going too fast. By the time he clipped the inside of the turn, the car was mostly pointed down the straight and under full acceleration. He would continue drift to the outside edge of the track and disappear. The big cars, the McLaren's and the Porsche's, were faster, but it was more fun to watch Bertil.

[dewittpayne]

And Autocross apex stuff.. where you get on the throttle has nothing to do with where the apex is.. however, you will never see a successful racer of any kind that does not pass the apex line on almost full throttle..

True. You can tell a fast driver from a slow one by listening. You don't even have to look. The fast ones get on the throttle early and never lift on exit. But that's because the clipping point on the inside of the turn isn't necessarily the apex. The practical apex is where you start unwinding the wheel and applying the throttle.

[integra55]

In the world of road racing ..there are two theories.
Class room lines ..the ones that the schools teach you..
And the lap record, going for the win, real world lines.

Winners absolutely despise trying to pass a classroom driver.
Truth.
Those lines you refer to Walter are normal apex corners.. not early, not late.
I don't care who you are.. if you early apex any corner of speed.. you will either have to over slow to stay on course.. or go off the outside..
early is a relative term.. if the exit allows a normal apex ..then, it's normal.. not early. think about it. Why would you ever early apex, except to pass.. block? ?

thanks John … that's kinda what I thought … and I've heard the complaint about school lines during a race before … Randy Pobst road an article several yrs ago for Sports Car about the same thing

LeChump teaches you al lot about how to move through a race crowd using non optimal lines

[eunos735]

In the world of road racing ..there are two theories.
LeChump teaches you al lot about how to SURVIVE a race crowd using non optimal lines

FIFY

[integra55]

yeah … that too you really have to be ready for ANYTHING

[dewittpayne]

Forget that video I linked. Ed Fisher replied to my comment and pointed out some things I'd missed.

[John Brown]

that. Is exactly as I was trying to point out. No body ever early apexed intentionally , except to overtake.

So, DeWitt, I want to know how many laps have you logged competitively on a race track? Not Drivers schools.. not track days... not I-racing..
How many 40+ driver fields breathing down your neck for turn 1 ?

[thrdeye]

Adding this to our little archive here. This is a response from Andrew Pallotta to one of Rife's FB posts. I went looking for it and didn't want to lose it.

Haven't read the whole thread, but a lot of going faster is strategy.

1) At big events, you have 3 runs. You have to approach those 3 runs differently. Run 1 is always run as fast as you can and take some risks - it can't be a feeler run. If you cone, think about where and how you hit the cone, then pull the safety chute and get a clean run in on 2. By now you should know where to improve, and you can focus on cleaning up your mistakes on run 3. If you coned run 2 AGAIN, then it doesn't matter - go for it on run 3. You will be happier knowing you're risking coning and finishing 8th when you had the time to be top 2, than finishing 4th or 5th with a run you know wouldn't be your best. There is only one window for a safety run and I described it above - run 2 after hitting a cone on run 1. Never ever ever do it elsewhere.

2) Trying to be more aggressive will backfire on you 95% of the time. Some people get this to stick which makes others think they need to do it. This is wrong. Watch Bryan Heitkotter's video from West course last year - he damn near raw timed AS on that side and he looks like he's driving to work. Very few people can replicate this, but it's proof that aggression does not equal speed. Drive to your comfort level - if you are traditionally more relaxed behind the wheel, then being more aggressive will lead you to cone, over-drive, or otherwise cause the car to do things you don't want it to.

3) Related to this, "trying harder" to go faster doesn't work. As in, trying to divebomb every braking area and jerking the wheel makes you slower most of the time. As a general rule, the faster you want to go, the earlier you should be doing *everything*. Braking earlier, turning earlier, throttling earlier. This was a big eureka moment for me. By doing everything earlier, you will naturally begin to carry your speed more, which is worth far more time than trying to carry 1mph more into a corner and then throwing the anchor.

4) Get close to everything. Practice it a lot. Cutting distance is the #1 way to improve your times on course. If someone is getting 3-4" closer to every cone than you are, you are losing seconds, especially in slaloms. I've been focusing a lot on just getting close to things this year. I'm hitting a ton of cones compared to how I used to, but it pays off on the clock, and it's satisfying to get it right.

[steverife]

FWIW, I haven't really been able to apply that the way I hoped. I've slowed down on first runs.

With that said, I think something clicked in the challenge as far as being able to back off a bit to get a clean run.

[dewittpayne]

I still need to just go faster. You can have a perfect line and if the car isn't at the limit, you'll still be slow. Hence Ross Bentley's autocross speed secret #24: Drive the car at the limit, then perfect your line. My average throttle opening at Bristol was ~25%, Mark and Josh were 32% and 35%.

[michael.plaster]

I still need to just go faster.

This is me. Watching my videos of the Bristol event were pretty eye opening as it looks like I'm not even trying to go fast. I need the bigger balls mod.