I'm sooo confused....

MARKP · Post by **MARKP** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:07 pm

Budman wrote:I agree with you that it don't have as much roll stiffness in the front as it used to have, but really don't think I can go with even stiffer front springs on the car than I already have. If I were to go up on front spring then I'd also have to go up on rear spring. We'd be looking at something like 550-600 front and 650-700 rear. Motion ratio is .97, car weighs 2470 with me in it and is on street tires so I shouldn't be running stiffer spring rates than a civic since their motion ratio is half of mine, but I'm right there with them already.

How does one tell if the car's suspension so stiff that it is too stiff?

Just because you make a change on one end of the car does not mean you have to make a change on the other. If you are working on fixing a problem on the front, work on the front and leave the rear alone. If you get the front fixed, you might find the rear is too loose because you gained grip in the front. If that happens, then work on the rear.

Forget about what Civics have on them. Your car is not a Civic. You drive a car that is off the beaten path. In order to make it work, you will probably have to get off the beaten path on setup.

lcoleman · Post by **lcoleman** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:49 pm

Honestly, it seems like a lot of these setup changes are just guesses. If I were unhappy with how my car was handling, I would "reset" everything I could in order to find out which handling "symptoms" are caused by which suspension setting.

I'd go back to the stiffest front/rear bar combo you can get and to a good "base" spring rate with a front-to-rear ratio that is as close to stock as you can get. Then, tune the sways (you have adjustable sways, right?) to get the car to push or slide as you prefer. After that, I'd mess with the springs to dial it in just right.

This logic might be flawed, but I'm basing this on the fact that the f/r rate ratio of the springs should be held pretty close to constant. Also, your car needs all the help with body roll that it can get, hence the stiffest sways possible while still maintaining a good balance...anyone care to correct/improve my statements?

Post by **thrdeye** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:06 pm

lcoleman wrote: anyone care to correct/improve my statements?

With the course elements involved in autocross, theory mostly goes out the window. Many cars need really weird unconventional setups to autocross well.... Your setup is never going to be 100%. It's a lot of guess and test compared to say setting up a car for track usage.

CABoegemann · Post by **CABoegemann** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:46 pm

This would be helpful.

http://www.hotlapmotorsports.com/produc ... product=84

Especially for setting up the fronts. Buy one and let me borrow it!

Post by **thrdeye** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:51 pm

CABoegemann wrote:This would be helpful.

http://www.hotlapmotorsports.com/produc ... product=84

Especially for setting up the fronts. Buy one and let me borrow it!

I think you'd have to put all 4 sensors in one wheel well to see if you were doing any good.

mrsoul55 · Post by **mrsoul55** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:07 pm

This is why I do this for fun only. I have to think all day at work. I don't want to ruin my hobby by having to think too much.

TedV · Post by **TedV** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:17 pm

this would be helpful to read http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html

and then read all the books he lists too.

must only change one thing at a time. I set my CM up like a multi time CM champ suggested and it was completely undrivable because a lil thing called wheel backspacing completely changed handling.

The stock spring rates on a Saturn were designed so when you lost control you would auger in head first with massive understeer. Forget about any stock front to rear spring ratio, just do what works. Maximise front grip and tune with the rear. DG suggests a natural spring ratio that might be a good starting point. Do the math and see how it compairs to what you have run. You have lots of notes and testing ahead. I've not been able to keep up with all the stuff you have tried. Heck I can't keep up with all I have tried. When I last ran your car in the fun run it was more drivable but I screwed up not knowing what it was going to do. Haupt had no preconceived handling to it and felt what it was doing when he rode with me. I also said a few times.. "don't do that" after I realised I could have taken a turn different and better.

All this mental masterbation reminds me of a fortune cookie:
" Knowing but not doing is still not knowing"

but it's still fun

TedV · Post by **TedV** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:18 pm

thrdeye wrote:
CABoegemann wrote:This would be helpful.

http://www.hotlapmotorsports.com/produc ... product=84

Especially for setting up the fronts. Buy one and let me borrow it!
I think you'd have to put all 4 sensors in one wheel well to see if you were doing any good.

X2. I've seen it done on all 4 wheels like that too.

Dstan · Post by **Dstan** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:41 pm

TedV wrote:this would be helpful to read http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html

and then read all the books he lists too.
must only change one thing at a time. I set my CM up like a multi time CM champ suggested and it was completely undrivable because a lil thing called wheel backspacing completely changed handling.

The stock spring rates on a Saturn were designed so when you lost control you would auger in head first with massive understeer. Forget about any stock front to rear spring ratio, just do what works. Maximise front grip and tune with the rear. DG suggests a natural spring ratio that might be a good starting point. Do the math and see how it compairs to what you have run. You have lots of notes and testing ahead. I've not been able to keep up with all the stuff you have tried. Heck I can't keep up with all I have tried. When I last ran your car in the fun run it was more drivable but I screwed up not knowing what it was going to do. Haupt had no preconceived handling to it and felt what it was doing when he rode with me. I also said a few times.. "don't do that" after I realised I could have taken a turn different and better.

All this mental masterbation reminds me of a fortune cookie:
" Knowing but not doing is still not knowing"

but it's still fun

I have learned alot from that site, It is on top of my autocross favorite links

Budman · Post by **Budman** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:31 pm

I have also been to that site quite a few times...lots of good info, but some of that stuff is over my head. Since I don't have any stiffer springs at my disposal and can't get any before this weekend I experimented with what I do have....swaybars.

Experiment #1: Installed smallest front bar (22mm) I have. As expected much less body roll and more push/inside front wheel spin.

Experiment #2: Stiffened up rear bar two notches. Car felt more balanced but feels like both front and rear tires not gripping well (daily driver 320 treadwear tires) - has a skating feeling. This isn't a new feeling...felt that way ever since I put on very stiff springs.

Tommorow I plan to install slightly softer front springs (going from 500 to 450) and see what that does.

Dstan · Post by **Dstan** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:56 pm

Budman wrote:I have also been to that site quite a few times...lots of good info, but some of that stuff is over my head. Since I don't have any stiffer springs at my disposal and can't get any before this weekend I experimented with what I do have....swaybars.

Experiment #1: Installed smallest front bar (22mm) I have. As expected much less body roll and more push/inside front wheel spin.

Experiment #2: Stiffened up rear bar two notches. Car felt more balanced but feels like both front and rear tires not gripping well (daily driver 320 treadwear tires) - has a skating feeling. This isn't a new feeling...felt that way ever since I put on very stiff springs.

Tommorow I plan to install slightly softer front springs (going from 500 to 450) and see what that does.

wow you spend alot of time under your car John.

Budman · Post by **Budman** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:34 pm

Dstan wrote:wow you spend alot of time under your car John.

You have no idea how true that is.....

Dstan · Post by **Dstan** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:04 pm

Budman wrote:
Dstan wrote:wow you spend alot of time under your car John.
You have no idea how true that is.....

just remember seat time is way more important than any time you spend under the car!
I did my time under the car and think I have it set, so now to learn how to drive. after chasing you all season I think your car is set too. Too much fixing is not good and you have to relearn everytime you change.
My last mods are the few power ones we are allowed, reflashed ECU, full exhaust, and light weight pulleys +30 hp so I will have more power next season

TennTechMan · Post by **TennTechMan** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:24 pm

TennTechMan wrote:There was a company at SEMA selling a data logger for about $500 that really caught my attention..... I'll post up the name of the company sometime tomorrow.

The name of the company is Drew Technologies out of Michigan. The name of the product I was refering to is DashDAQ (www.DashDAQ.com). The website doesn't show info about as many of the features as the product is supposedly capable of. If anyone is serious about it, I recommend calling the company and letting them know exactly what you want to do with it. Let them tell you for sure that the product can or can't do what you want.

gbwrx · Post by **gbwrx** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:00 pm

I do have a parking lot up the street that I use to drive in when I put stuff on the WRX. I would go in there...do a couple of laps trying out the new parts and then get the heck out as fast as I could. Bad thing is that the cops sometimes sit in the same parking lot.