2014 RTP/PAX

[MARKP]

Dony forget the class killers in SS probably will accelerate like AWD on streets. It ain't about Corvettes.

Sent from the Galaxy

[RxCritical]

Dony forget the class killers in SS probably will accelerate like AWD on streets. It ain't about Corvettes.

Sent from the Galaxy

But I thought it WAS all about Corvettes?

You just burst my bubble Mark.
I think I should now trade for a Mustang GT.

[jcox07]

Now ur catching on Paul but don't stop with just a gt put a 500 after the gt and u will be in business

[RxCritical]

Now ur catching on Paul but don't stop with just a gt put a 500 after the gt and u will be in business

arrr

[dewittpayne]

Indeed, I'm not happy. But the numbers are so biased it's almost funny. It's pretty clear that RR wants to discourage participation in Street and is succeeding. See for example this post:

http://www.roadraceautox.com/showpost.p ... tcount=276

And there you have it. It wasn't supposed to be accurate this year. It was set in such a way to guarantee it wasn't soft. Now that that's clear, I'm happy to accept that and move on (to a sticky tire class).

Shame, I would have like to run Street class but maybe in a few years when things shake out. Or if SCCA stands in and makes their own indexes.

But Rick is not to blame. It's SCCA promoting its use.

[emphasis added]

Rick is not to blame? LOL. If he doesn't like the way it's used, he should stop producing it. But both Novice and Pro classes couldn't exist without it or something like it.

[John Brown]

Lol ...
oh.... and, BS!

[steverife]

Discourage them by not giving them a freebie?

The entire category gets a "tough" PAX. We may very well stick with an indexed street category. Almost everyone in our region leaves a lot of meat on the bone. Drive better.

...or if your goal is to PAX well, find/build a car that you feel gives you an advantage. Hint: You'll be changing cars every year.

[John Brown]

Discourage them by not giving them a freebie?

The entire category gets a "tough" PAX. We may very well stick with an indexed street category. Almost everyone in our region leaves a lot of meat on the bone. Drive better.

...or if your goal is to PAX well, find/build a car that you feel gives you an advantage. Hint: You'll be changing cars every year.

or improving the car you have... or your driving. either way,its a challenge.


oh and Dewhutt.. this is the real truth..
"Originally Posted by Rick Ruth
With a brand new Category, I didn't want it to start out with everything just handed to that Category of cars." tell me.. WHO.. but people that run that class would want anything different?????
He had a year of data... so, it wasn't a complete wild ass guess... only problem is,nobody fast or experienced,stuck it out all year.. (means ex or current National Champs). So,in reality..when that happens, maybe 2014,the pax will good for THEM. not the folks that even locally are mid-pack,or worse Pax wise.

the cream always..... rises to the top. bullriding, tennis, swimming, motorsports... nothing changes that.

[dewittpayne]

John,

Obviously I need to drive better. I know that. The question is: how much better and am I making progress? Handicapping is common in sports at some levels too, see for example horse racing, golf and chess. SCCA World Challenge used to 'reward' high finishers by adding weight to their car for the next race. NASCAR played all sorts of games over the years to supposedly equalize competition between makes.

No handicapping system will ever be perfect. But if you're going to have one at all, you should at least try, and not put your thumb on the scale for some classes. Ideally, the system should be transparent with no personal judgement involved at all. That seems to be the intent of DAX.

If the Ruth RTP is the only alternative for the Street classes for 2014, which remains to be seen, I vote for continuing the tire class with the Street-R indexes.

[thrdeye]

Street category pax is probably wrong, but whatever, 2013 PAX is likely mostly wrong for our Pelli lot anyway. I would rather it be conservative anyway, and I'm all about some street tires.

Word is that match tours and pros will go to a dial in system. Yes, these can also be manipulated, but only by the best of the best, and even then it can backfire on you.

There will always be some part of any system that will have to be theoretical, unless you intend on not giving an index to new vehicles or compensating for new allowances or rule changes.

[MARKP]

I think to say Rick doesn't "try" is a little inflammatory. He does, in my opinion, a thankless job that he volunteers to do. It's not perfect and it never will be. There will always be arguments that something else is better. The fact is that it gives us a way to compare across classes that we wouldn't otherwise have and he has been doing it the longest. I think a lot of people forget that he does this on his own and without any direction from SCCA.

Sent from the Galaxy

[Wheelman_13]

I think the crucial point here is that PAX is designed to handicap groups of CARS, not drivers......and specifically THE car in the group that is dominant in that group when prepped to the limit of the rules, and driven by ostensibly the best driver in the group.

Take out any of those qualifiers (THE car / Max prep / "best" driver) and the modifiers go out the window.

DAX is entertaining, but unless we're all going to go in on a rental beater and flog an identical car for an event, also moot for competition.

"How much better"? Well, you've had RC and some others drive your car on the same course: That's how much better. Even "close" to that would probably yield competitive results assuming your car and it's prep will support it in your class relative to a Nat-winning car.

(as a side-note: screw dial-in "racing"....that's not racing, that's driving to a time. I'd rather have best-guess PAX ANY day.)

[John Brown]

John,

Obviously I need to drive better. I know that. The question is: how much better and am I making progress? Handicapping is common in sports at some levels too, see for example horse racing, golf and chess. SCCA World Challenge used to 'reward' high finishers by adding weight to their car for the next race. NASCAR played all sorts of games over the years to supposedly equalize competition between makes.

No handicapping system will ever be perfect. But if you're going to have one at all, you should at least try, and not put your thumb on the scale for some classes. Ideally, the system should be transparent with no personal judgement involved at all. That seems to be the intent of DAX.

If the Ruth RTP is the only alternative for the Street classes for 2014, which remains to be seen, I vote for continuing the tire class with the Street-R indexes.

... why? I think your gonna be better off with the new number.. the class isn't gonna occupy the top 10% of any given day... but still..

[thrdeye]

(as a side-note: screw dial-in "racing"....that's not racing, that's driving to a time. I'd rather have best-guess PAX ANY day.)

You sir, should attend a prosolo, make the challenge, and then post. If it ain't racing I don't know what is.

That said, ProSolo uses a PAX, but could be going to dial in

[steverife]

(as a side-note: screw dial-in "racing"....that's not racing, that's driving to a time. I'd rather have best-guess PAX ANY day.)

You sir, should attend a prosolo, make the challenge, and then post. If it ain't racing I don't know what is.

That said, ProSolo uses a PAX, but could be going to dial in

I quit caring about Pro Solo at the 2008 Finale when I saw Jason Burns and Sam Strano line up, both in FS cars, and one had something like a 9 second dial in advantage over the other.

The dial-ins are pretty damn gimmicky, IMO.