Hypothetical Question
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:53 am
Hi guys, my name is Nick, but I also go by Thorne (middle name) as well sometimes too, so call me whichever! Anyways, I had a quick question to ask about the legality of what I am proposing in the car classification of the SCCA. I had a huge post written up, that took so long to write I was logged out due to inactivity so when I went to post, everything was erased as it prompted me to log back in! Whoops. Anyways, I will keep it more brief and easier to read (hopefully). This is a two part question, the first being the legality and the second being the pros/cons and the reasoning behind it.
Part 1: Legality.
So, I have a 98 civic hx, with 20 year old suspension components and a drivetrain designed for maximum fuel economy, and not performance (not even sure if I have a front sway bar on that thing!!) That was the car I drove in the two events on Saturday and Sunday (which, I got to say what a weekend! special shoutout to Jim, Doug, and Kevin. You guys really helped me learn a lot, and I enjoyed hanging out with you all. I had to work Friday, saturday, and sunday from 6pm to 3am too, so not much time for sleep after the drive from knoxville but I enjoyed the heck out of it and would do it again in a heartbeat!)
I also think (more on that later) that I own a EX version as well, does not drive at the moment but it is the trim with the more powerful engine and lower geared transmission, and a sunroof!! (most important part (more on that later too)
I like the HX the way it is, it does what it does great, however, both the EX and the Si are also in HS class, and I was wondering, if I swapped over every single thing that was different between the EX and the Si, would that technically be allowed in the eyes of the SCCA?
And I mean everything. Engine, transmission, suspension and brakes. That's why I would have to do it to the ex, since, the HX, LX, EX and Si are similar, they all have power windows and locks, the Lx adds cruise control, the Ex adds a sunroof, and the Si adds all of the suspension, brakes, and higher output engine. So, I would have to do it with an EX, unless I was prepared to cut out and weld the entire roof panel (could be done I suppose!)
I learned earlier through you guys, and then again while reading the SCCA rule book, that trim specific equipment is non-transferable across trims, unless it was an option on that trim too. Makes sense now, since, while the EX and the HX are very similar, the EX has bigger brakes. I wanted to transfer that over to my HX, but, the HX is almost 200lbs lighter, and it would be giving it an advantage in braking power vs stock HX or EX.
But what if everything was changed? Down to the last standard option, the dash, the wiring, the drivetrain and all suspension components. Is that legal? the only difference between the two cars would be that one says EX, while the other would say Si (though, that could be fixed too). For all intents and purposes the cars would be identical, indistinguishable from one another in terms of weight, looks, handling, and performance.
Part 2: reasoning, pros/cons
As a 22 year old pizza delivery driver, I might not have the most money, but I do have the time. A lot of that time, I am working on cars, whether it be maintaining my own pizza slinging rigs, or working on the multitude of problems that all of my coworkers seem to be having all of the time. Luckily I kind of like doing it!! Anyways, I have the EX(technically), if I happened to find a 'wrecked beyond repair' Si (quotes because my HX was 'wrecked beyond repair, but as y'all saw did just fine on the course yesterday!) Si, most likely with some sort of frame damage making it unsafe to drive or uneconomical to repair, I could use it as a parts car to swap everything over that I could possible do. That being said, I have one in mind, it goes for auction in one month, and, if legal, I would like to get it and tackle this immense project! Getting to put that much work and effort into a car that I would then be racing seems like the way I want to spend my free time!
Pros:
Tires, the Si has 15x6 wheels, vs 14x5.5 on the other trims. that alone would allow me to run a slightly wider tire, while also opening up the door to the vast number of tires available to all of the miata people out there! I know I could go to 15x5.5 now, however, starting off with a 15x6 inch wheel would allow me to move up to 16x6 should the need arise.
Suspension, the Si has stiffer springs and roll bars, progressively valved shocks, and a factory installed strut tower brace. Those would probably be the best reason to do so, since i would have a flatter, more stable ride. This, coupled with the wider tires would help immensely I would think!
Engine, the Si also comes with a 160hp 8.2k revving monster, compared to the EX with 127, and my HX, with only 115! now, I know that is not too much of a difference in the long run, and in reality it is more about momentum then straight line acceleration, however, I can't help but think that a 7.1 second 0-60 time would help me pull out of the straights better than the 10.5 seconds it takes my HX.
Cons:
Time, this swap would be incredibly time consuming, however, I have poor judgement skills and lots of motivation (at times) so it would not be too much of an issue. Plus, I like working on these little civics! Very easy and open space. I could see myself doing this in its entirety in just one week, possibly two. (last civic i bought was a different ex coupe for a friend, he needed an engine. Didn't even take the car off the trailer, I was able to remove everything that was still intact and worth saving in two whole days, then sent the shell to the scrap yard. It weighed less than half what it did when I got it! Entire interior, including the dash and shifter, steering column, all of the brakes and master cylinder, cruise control actuator, you name it I have a spare now haha.)
Damaged parts, if I am buying a wrecked car that is so badly wrecked it goes for cheap (can not be economically repaired), there will probably be damage to certain parts of the suspension and brakes, possible engine that would need to be fixed or otherwise replaced (though, replaced with Si spec parts!)
Weight, the Si weights 108 pounds more than the EX (which also both weigh more than the HX), which is all due to the engine and transmission it has in there. The b series is just that much more heavier. I am worried that the extra weight will hurt in terms of cornering and other handling, but, would that or would it not more than otherwise just be negated by the other pros? I look forward to disusing this one!
Cost, while the car might still be non-repairable, the b16 engine and transmission are still worth something, and people who know that would probably be willing to pay more than I could afford to get their hands on it! One will only see how much it actually sells for when the auction happens.
I look forward to discussing all of this with you guys, and am looking forward to feedback. Just another note though, this is all hypothetical, and there is only a slim chance I will actually do this, if only for the reason I am not going to be able to afford the purchase price of the car should it go for sale. But, hypothetically, since I already have the time and the energy; say I had the money and it was legal...?
Thanks for reading all of this! I am going to copy and paste it somewhere since I took a while to write this up too and I don't want it to be lost (not as much as the other one though phew you should have seen it haha). Looking forward to waking up and seeing all of the replies, otherwise, have a good night!
Part 1: Legality.
So, I have a 98 civic hx, with 20 year old suspension components and a drivetrain designed for maximum fuel economy, and not performance (not even sure if I have a front sway bar on that thing!!) That was the car I drove in the two events on Saturday and Sunday (which, I got to say what a weekend! special shoutout to Jim, Doug, and Kevin. You guys really helped me learn a lot, and I enjoyed hanging out with you all. I had to work Friday, saturday, and sunday from 6pm to 3am too, so not much time for sleep after the drive from knoxville but I enjoyed the heck out of it and would do it again in a heartbeat!)
I also think (more on that later) that I own a EX version as well, does not drive at the moment but it is the trim with the more powerful engine and lower geared transmission, and a sunroof!! (most important part (more on that later too)
I like the HX the way it is, it does what it does great, however, both the EX and the Si are also in HS class, and I was wondering, if I swapped over every single thing that was different between the EX and the Si, would that technically be allowed in the eyes of the SCCA?
And I mean everything. Engine, transmission, suspension and brakes. That's why I would have to do it to the ex, since, the HX, LX, EX and Si are similar, they all have power windows and locks, the Lx adds cruise control, the Ex adds a sunroof, and the Si adds all of the suspension, brakes, and higher output engine. So, I would have to do it with an EX, unless I was prepared to cut out and weld the entire roof panel (could be done I suppose!)
I learned earlier through you guys, and then again while reading the SCCA rule book, that trim specific equipment is non-transferable across trims, unless it was an option on that trim too. Makes sense now, since, while the EX and the HX are very similar, the EX has bigger brakes. I wanted to transfer that over to my HX, but, the HX is almost 200lbs lighter, and it would be giving it an advantage in braking power vs stock HX or EX.
But what if everything was changed? Down to the last standard option, the dash, the wiring, the drivetrain and all suspension components. Is that legal? the only difference between the two cars would be that one says EX, while the other would say Si (though, that could be fixed too). For all intents and purposes the cars would be identical, indistinguishable from one another in terms of weight, looks, handling, and performance.
Part 2: reasoning, pros/cons
As a 22 year old pizza delivery driver, I might not have the most money, but I do have the time. A lot of that time, I am working on cars, whether it be maintaining my own pizza slinging rigs, or working on the multitude of problems that all of my coworkers seem to be having all of the time. Luckily I kind of like doing it!! Anyways, I have the EX(technically), if I happened to find a 'wrecked beyond repair' Si (quotes because my HX was 'wrecked beyond repair, but as y'all saw did just fine on the course yesterday!) Si, most likely with some sort of frame damage making it unsafe to drive or uneconomical to repair, I could use it as a parts car to swap everything over that I could possible do. That being said, I have one in mind, it goes for auction in one month, and, if legal, I would like to get it and tackle this immense project! Getting to put that much work and effort into a car that I would then be racing seems like the way I want to spend my free time!
Pros:
Tires, the Si has 15x6 wheels, vs 14x5.5 on the other trims. that alone would allow me to run a slightly wider tire, while also opening up the door to the vast number of tires available to all of the miata people out there! I know I could go to 15x5.5 now, however, starting off with a 15x6 inch wheel would allow me to move up to 16x6 should the need arise.
Suspension, the Si has stiffer springs and roll bars, progressively valved shocks, and a factory installed strut tower brace. Those would probably be the best reason to do so, since i would have a flatter, more stable ride. This, coupled with the wider tires would help immensely I would think!
Engine, the Si also comes with a 160hp 8.2k revving monster, compared to the EX with 127, and my HX, with only 115! now, I know that is not too much of a difference in the long run, and in reality it is more about momentum then straight line acceleration, however, I can't help but think that a 7.1 second 0-60 time would help me pull out of the straights better than the 10.5 seconds it takes my HX.
Cons:
Time, this swap would be incredibly time consuming, however, I have poor judgement skills and lots of motivation (at times) so it would not be too much of an issue. Plus, I like working on these little civics! Very easy and open space. I could see myself doing this in its entirety in just one week, possibly two. (last civic i bought was a different ex coupe for a friend, he needed an engine. Didn't even take the car off the trailer, I was able to remove everything that was still intact and worth saving in two whole days, then sent the shell to the scrap yard. It weighed less than half what it did when I got it! Entire interior, including the dash and shifter, steering column, all of the brakes and master cylinder, cruise control actuator, you name it I have a spare now haha.)
Damaged parts, if I am buying a wrecked car that is so badly wrecked it goes for cheap (can not be economically repaired), there will probably be damage to certain parts of the suspension and brakes, possible engine that would need to be fixed or otherwise replaced (though, replaced with Si spec parts!)
Weight, the Si weights 108 pounds more than the EX (which also both weigh more than the HX), which is all due to the engine and transmission it has in there. The b series is just that much more heavier. I am worried that the extra weight will hurt in terms of cornering and other handling, but, would that or would it not more than otherwise just be negated by the other pros? I look forward to disusing this one!
Cost, while the car might still be non-repairable, the b16 engine and transmission are still worth something, and people who know that would probably be willing to pay more than I could afford to get their hands on it! One will only see how much it actually sells for when the auction happens.
I look forward to discussing all of this with you guys, and am looking forward to feedback. Just another note though, this is all hypothetical, and there is only a slim chance I will actually do this, if only for the reason I am not going to be able to afford the purchase price of the car should it go for sale. But, hypothetically, since I already have the time and the energy; say I had the money and it was legal...?
Thanks for reading all of this! I am going to copy and paste it somewhere since I took a while to write this up too and I don't want it to be lost (not as much as the other one though phew you should have seen it haha). Looking forward to waking up and seeing all of the replies, otherwise, have a good night!