6-12-22 course

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jcox07
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6-12-22 course

Post by jcox07 »

Looks like we have some concerns with course that was used on June12th event. I have video with race capture for anyone who wants to see it and had the 5th fastest raw time of the day. 63mph was my top speed on the entire course and yes I have hit the limiter at BMS even when it was at 90mph and I didn't see any issue with speed but would probably want a little less bend toward finish which I didn't get crossed up on at all but saw some that did. I also posted up for the event 6 for a course designer, so if it was an issue and someone wants to do the next course please post up. I'm just gonna leave it here for someone to post......
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by MARKP »

You know my thoughts. I think when Scott voiced a concern about the speed, it should have been addressed. He's a Safety Steward too and there should have at least been a compromise. I was at 75 on my spin run in a stock car on Falkens. I was bouncing the limiter at 70 for a long time before I tried 3rd on my last run.

We have people that stand on the course to work and those kinds of speeds will get someone seriously hurt if something happens.

I did a Smokies course earlier this year. If I am up there the Saturday before, I can do one at BMS. I have done them in the past. If anyone wants to try their hand at one, I'm happy to help there as well.

IMO, the biggest thing is safety and the course designer should work together. It seems to be very adversarial at times.
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by jcox07 »

Correct Scott did put a cone in the middle of that area which IMO as a safety steward as well was something that would have caused more issues than it could have solved as it was almost at the point of the highest speed and it was a hard cone placement to be able to even get close to making it without center punching the cone. We had a course last year and it was at the test n tune where we changed the course and I walked it and said it was too fast and some said it wasn't and I had Randy drive it in his vette and he came back and said yes it was too fast and sometimes going fast and then having a cone to get around is not the best option and I felt like that cone would have put some in the fence. If you want the course Mark for the June 26th event you have it, no problem at all. JY
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by benk »

I'll say it wasn't as fast as I thought it was going to be. That being said I feel like we could have added one more element on the first half of the course. In a lower powered car it felt like a drag strip and was a little bit on the boring side. Put your foot in it and just some minor (for autox) steering adjustments. The mental game of a long drag strip followed by some really pinchy autox elements at the end was a challenge that I did enjoy.
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by Buck05Sti »

I liked the course and, although it was fast, i personally didnt feel it was too unsafe. Only part that made me nervous after the turn around when i was pointed at the grass/creek. But even then, barring a massive slide or wet conditions, it didnt seem unsafe.
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by Scoob »

I will say that it walked faster than it turned out to drive. I topped out just before slowing for the uphill left at right around 70. The only person faster (that kept it pointing in the right direction) was Chris Ross in the Cobra. I think event 1 from this year had a higher speed going up the hill. It was not the fastest course we've had but it may have been one of the least technical courses we've had. And it absolutely rewarded you if you set up correctly for the upcoming elements.

That said, in the future I will focus on working with the course designers to ensure that all cars will be able to safely navigate the courses while keeping the workers safely away from people 'getting it wrong.' I'm not a designer and don't want to be so I'll focus on visuals and speeds, especially around workers, the creek, and the finish.
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by thrdeye »

We've had all these course discussions before and there's a ton of reading material in this forum and in the solo committee forum about it. I think the horse is dead and it always circles back to no one else really being given an opportunity to try to design a course. Usually by the time the "Event check-in thread" is started, it's already been decided.

A Z06 hitting those speeds for that long took me by surprise. I can't say, but maybe Mark can about how many times he's been on the limiter long enough to need 3rd in a Z06. Like I said, no matter what the speed, going straight is usually safe. But, even so if you need 3rd for that long of a stretch, I think it needs to be looked at because I can't see how that's in line with the SCCA guidelines.

In the heyday of pro, course design really was also part of the competitive balance. Sadly, we've now got CAM and then everyone else, so that's not much of a concern any longer unless some out of town folks come visit.

So, is there one particular thing about yesterday's course that sticks out besides the speed across the middle? No, not really. If anything it's just that there isn't much variety any more and in anything non-muscle car, it was fairly boring.

It used to be that our sites did not allow us the speeds to adequately prepare for national events, so any time we were able to get a more open site, of course we pushed those up some. Now, the general lack of autocross elements don't adequately represent what you'll see nationally.
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by John Brown »

Chris, in case you missed the numbers. We had 5 small bore cars..and 5 big bore cars in the top 10 pax.
Please explain where you would have made it any more balanced?
I'd love to know. Seriously
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by thrdeye »

Hmm.

Not much happening in that long run out to the first turn around. It's hard to describe, but those two cones you drove to the right of after turn 1, maybe flip those so you drive to the left of them and move them up the hill a foot or two while easing the exit of T1 a little so it doesn't have to kill momentum. Then just adjust the next two accordingly so they are still a transition. Maintains the same idea but does make it more of an element. Then you could just play with spacing to make sure it worked for all vehicles and to move everything far enough away from the fence if needed. Sense of speed vs actual speed.
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by John Brown »

I don't think sense of speed is a thing in a powerful car. your either driving a fluid course.. or its painful.
And, I'm still missing the part how you make 5 and 5 of the top 10 more even... :mrgreen:
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by thrdeye »

That's all been talked about as well: http://etrscca.org/etrsccaforum/viewtop ... 44#p157995

I think you have to admit that the courses we have for the national tours, while still quick, definitely have a much different flavor and mix of elements than our typical local event.
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by John Brown »

sure. and they get bashed too by a few. I nor anyone else will EVER build an autocross course thats liked by 100%
And.. all the other courses at BMS this year have been very twisty and curvy.. it was time to mix it up.
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by MARKP »

I wrote a book for a post and then deleted it. It's not worth my time, or your reading it. What happened happened.

Autocross courses aren't supposed to be 70+mph for Street and ST classes. Look it up in the book if you don't believe me.

This is the first time I have tried 3rd gear in my Vette at an autocross course. The rev limiter is 70 in 2nd. I have been on it before at events but never this long. 3rd gear in my car was ready to grenade before this season so I would bounce it off the limiter instead. Typically a couple of "bumps" on the limiter is all I have ever gotten at any event. This one was a lot more than a couple.

We have a lot of people that travel to national events. At national events, we don't see courses like what we have seen more often than not at BMS. It's evidenced by people coming back and complaining that the national event courses are "tight" or "don't flow". I get it that fast courses are popular with many. I know we put on great events that get lots of runs in a short amount of time, usually rivaling the efficiency of most national events. If we are going to run a national-level local program, shouldn't we have courses that are similar to what we see at national events that we attend?

If anyone else has data overlay on their videos, I'd like to see it.

In case anyone hasn't seen the videos on FB, here's the youtube links:
.3 off my fastest clean run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjepurwWgis
Spin run (3rd gear): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A58dmrIRG0
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by Nick2500cd »

I liked the course, esp the end that would really mess you up if you overdrove it. It's hard for me to tone it down in the civic but I think I did alright. Anyways I have drawn up a draft for Bristol, with one loop, just ignore the fact that I accidentally drew it close to a pole, we can have that pole removed. And maybe we can add the blue part
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Re: 6-12-22 course

Post by John Brown »

Glad you liked it Nick!
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