I am in the market for upgrading the front lsd in my car from viscous lock to torsen. Since I have not heard of many awd cars with a front torsen diff, I guess this question will be for the fwd cars with it. The only car I know of that came stock with one is the Integra type R.
Can someon e tell me how daily driver friendly is the torsen diff in the front drive axels? I know wehave some bumpy roads, and that torsen can not split torque when there is a wheel in the air. I do not notice getting the front wheels in the air often, so this may not be an issue.
I have been concidering upgrading the rear to torsen, since that was a stock option for my car, but I have to make sure that I have removed the rear wheel lift when I corner hard. If I have not resolved that, I will go clutch type in the rear. I can modify a mr2 turbo clutch type to be used in the front, but I would prefer the torsen diff, if I can help it.
Daily driving fwd torsen
Daily driving fwd torsen
Coldiron (Cold - Iron)
92' Celica alltrac: in final stages of rebuild
03' Z: Grocery Gitter
92' Celica alltrac: in final stages of rebuild
03' Z: Grocery Gitter
Kinda OT, but I'm pretty sure the MR2 OEM LSD is viscous. Should be very similar to your front LSD.
How many miles do you have on your all-trac and how have the diffs held up? I've tossed around the idea of "building" an all-trac with the influx of JDM drivetrain pull-outs. Ironically, the JDM 3S-GTE all-trac drivetrain is almost $1000 cheaper than a 2wd MR2 clip with the same engine.
How many miles do you have on your all-trac and how have the diffs held up? I've tossed around the idea of "building" an all-trac with the influx of JDM drivetrain pull-outs. Ironically, the JDM 3S-GTE all-trac drivetrain is almost $1000 cheaper than a 2wd MR2 clip with the same engine.
Wherer do you get your prices? I tend to see them about the same cost. 1-2k for a 90-93 gt4 or mr2.
I too think the stock Mr2 is viscous, but a/m suppliers make a clutch type lsd for the mr2. The mr2 lsd is the same size as the gt4 front lsd, but the shaft going to the center diff is smaller then the shaft for the gt4, so one would have to be fabricated.
Quiafe makes a good front torsen unit for the gt4, and is the one I have been planning on.
Mine has about 136k on it. The diff has held up well, but the main problem with the viscous type diffs, is the delay in power transfer. It is ok on long turns when it works, but when I get on shorter turns, or autox I have the intial understeer and less use of the diff. I tend to have to turn in early, to get any use of the front diff on a short course. The car still handles well, but I have to be on my toes to get the most of the car.
As for "making" a gt4, it is not an advised project. Normal celicas use a different floor pan, and st18x models (pre 94) do not have the drive shaft tunnel at all. One could be made, but for the cost it would be cheaper to by an alltrac. On the note of engine swaps in alltracs, for the cost of the clip+ the swap, you could have a 400+hp engine. It has been done to a few st20x models, but it is fairly expensive, and the question of structural integrity is in question. With cost aside, I myself would concider doing one if I knew the car would be at least as rigid as a stock gt4.
There is a gt4 converted to rwd and a TT lexus v8. I think this a decent idea for a project. Not sure if anyone would let you race it though.
I too think the stock Mr2 is viscous, but a/m suppliers make a clutch type lsd for the mr2. The mr2 lsd is the same size as the gt4 front lsd, but the shaft going to the center diff is smaller then the shaft for the gt4, so one would have to be fabricated.
Quiafe makes a good front torsen unit for the gt4, and is the one I have been planning on.
Mine has about 136k on it. The diff has held up well, but the main problem with the viscous type diffs, is the delay in power transfer. It is ok on long turns when it works, but when I get on shorter turns, or autox I have the intial understeer and less use of the diff. I tend to have to turn in early, to get any use of the front diff on a short course. The car still handles well, but I have to be on my toes to get the most of the car.
As for "making" a gt4, it is not an advised project. Normal celicas use a different floor pan, and st18x models (pre 94) do not have the drive shaft tunnel at all. One could be made, but for the cost it would be cheaper to by an alltrac. On the note of engine swaps in alltracs, for the cost of the clip+ the swap, you could have a 400+hp engine. It has been done to a few st20x models, but it is fairly expensive, and the question of structural integrity is in question. With cost aside, I myself would concider doing one if I knew the car would be at least as rigid as a stock gt4.
There is a gt4 converted to rwd and a TT lexus v8. I think this a decent idea for a project. Not sure if anyone would let you race it though.
Coldiron (Cold - Iron)
92' Celica alltrac: in final stages of rebuild
03' Z: Grocery Gitter
92' Celica alltrac: in final stages of rebuild
03' Z: Grocery Gitter
I've seen GT4 3S engines +tranny +harness +diffs for about $1400-1800 on ebay quite a few times. An MR2 clip with the same thing runs $2000-3000. A healthy, well tuned 3S will make 300+ hp almost forever, though.
There is a death pool going on over at mr2oc.com for one owner that runs 19psi on a stock 3S that has over 200,000 miles now. He races it almost every weekend too.
There was a pretty nice st205 on ebay a while back...red with white wheels. It was tempting. Low miles and cost less than a bottom-of-the-line new Kia.
There is a death pool going on over at mr2oc.com for one owner that runs 19psi on a stock 3S that has over 200,000 miles now. He races it almost every weekend too.
There was a pretty nice st205 on ebay a while back...red with white wheels. It was tempting. Low miles and cost less than a bottom-of-the-line new Kia.
Since we are on the topic of 3sgte.
Do you have a turbo mr2? And if so, how have you gone about tuning the engine. I have a greddy emanage, and a few other items, I am installing and have been loking for a local who has tuned a 3s. My engine is mostly stock now, but as soon as my FMIC piping gets in, I am turning up the boost. I need to wait for a FPR and a pressure sensor to use the emanage, but I may go ahead and install it to data log. I am most likely going up to GA to dyno tune the car. I would like to go get a baseline first, so that I can make sure the engine is already producing optimal power. If not, I will straighten all that out.
Do you have a turbo mr2? And if so, how have you gone about tuning the engine. I have a greddy emanage, and a few other items, I am installing and have been loking for a local who has tuned a 3s. My engine is mostly stock now, but as soon as my FMIC piping gets in, I am turning up the boost. I need to wait for a FPR and a pressure sensor to use the emanage, but I may go ahead and install it to data log. I am most likely going up to GA to dyno tune the car. I would like to go get a baseline first, so that I can make sure the engine is already producing optimal power. If not, I will straighten all that out.
Coldiron (Cold - Iron)
92' Celica alltrac: in final stages of rebuild
03' Z: Grocery Gitter
92' Celica alltrac: in final stages of rebuild
03' Z: Grocery Gitter
All of my currently running VW's have Quaife (torsen) differentials in them. They do feel a little different but once you get used to the different feel, you won't even know it's there. I have had the one in the race car for about 10 years and I had my first CV joint failure last year shifting to second. In other words, I don't think they do anything at all unusual to the axles and such.
The clutch types are a bear at times. I have driven a few FWD cars with clutch type differentials and depending on how stiff they are set, can be a pain to deal with. Besides that, they wear quickly in autocross use.
The clutch types are a bear at times. I have driven a few FWD cars with clutch type differentials and depending on how stiff they are set, can be a pain to deal with. Besides that, they wear quickly in autocross use.
Mark Pilson
03 Z06 - Sword
09 Mustang - Club
01 Excursion - The safe you dropped from the 10th story
03 Z06 - Sword
09 Mustang - Club
01 Excursion - The safe you dropped from the 10th story
Thanks Mark,
My main concern is the drivability on out local roads. I think it will be fine, but since my stiffer suspension casues me to get air more commonly around town, I have been wonder how much issue I will have driving with one. I think I will upgrade the trans. cooler, since it makes a bit more heat, but I think everything else mechanicly will be fine. I have been trying ot figure out if my car has a stock rear or torsen diff. Both were offered, but no one has any hard data of which is in my model. It is possible, that all US models had rear viscous, but I am looking into it.
UIf I end up using a clutch type, I think I will only use it in the rear. And that is if I can not prevent rear wheel lift.
I did find a problem causing some of my current understeer though.
My mechanic installed one of my front camber plates facing the wrong side. So rather then adjusting camber the toe is out on the right front wheel. So, after he corrects that, I will do some camber adjustment, and see if that helps. It set to stock settings at the moment, while the rear is more adjusted for racing camber.
Does anyone have any references to doing your own alignment. I have a lifetime alignment from firestone, but they give horrible service and never get it right the first time. They will alos only adjust to stock specs. In most cases they need the car all day.
If I could learn to do it myself, and measure it correctly, I would do my own.
My main concern is the drivability on out local roads. I think it will be fine, but since my stiffer suspension casues me to get air more commonly around town, I have been wonder how much issue I will have driving with one. I think I will upgrade the trans. cooler, since it makes a bit more heat, but I think everything else mechanicly will be fine. I have been trying ot figure out if my car has a stock rear or torsen diff. Both were offered, but no one has any hard data of which is in my model. It is possible, that all US models had rear viscous, but I am looking into it.
UIf I end up using a clutch type, I think I will only use it in the rear. And that is if I can not prevent rear wheel lift.
I did find a problem causing some of my current understeer though.
My mechanic installed one of my front camber plates facing the wrong side. So rather then adjusting camber the toe is out on the right front wheel. So, after he corrects that, I will do some camber adjustment, and see if that helps. It set to stock settings at the moment, while the rear is more adjusted for racing camber.
Does anyone have any references to doing your own alignment. I have a lifetime alignment from firestone, but they give horrible service and never get it right the first time. They will alos only adjust to stock specs. In most cases they need the car all day.
If I could learn to do it myself, and measure it correctly, I would do my own.
Coldiron (Cold - Iron)
92' Celica alltrac: in final stages of rebuild
03' Z: Grocery Gitter
92' Celica alltrac: in final stages of rebuild
03' Z: Grocery Gitter
I still have the crappy (if indestructible) 5SFE. I'm planning on swapping over to a 3S as a winter project. I've been reading up on the 3S for about a year now. In the MR2 camp, tuning depends on your ultimate goal. You can tune a 3S to put out a reliable 300 or so hp with a few mods. Much over that and the cost:benefit ratio goes up exponentially and streetability goes down.CMS-GT4 wrote:Since we are on the topic of 3sgte.
Do you have a turbo mr2? And if so, how have you gone about tuning the engine. I have a greddy emanage, and a few other items, I am installing and have been loking for a local who has tuned a 3s. My engine is mostly stock now, but as soon as my FMIC piping gets in, I am turning up the boost. I need to wait for a FPR and a pressure sensor to use the emanage, but I may go ahead and install it to data log. I am most likely going up to GA to dyno tune the car. I would like to go get a baseline first, so that I can make sure the engine is already producing optimal power. If not, I will straighten all that out.
I plan on building my 3S to put out a reliable and consistent 275hp or so. I want a very responsive engine. I'm watching for a 3rd gen 3S clip in good shape. www.jarcoinc.com is highly recommended and pretty close (ATL.) They have their own employees go to Japan and test drive / cut the cars. 3rd gen gets you a MAP instead of a MAF and a ct20b over a ct26 turbo.
I'll go for a 3S with a ct20b, an HKS fuel cut defenser, manual boost controller (12-14psi,) uprated IC and stock engine management. This should yield good daily driveability at the lowest possible cost.
I don't know about the All Trac community, but few MR2 Turbo owners opt to go standalone EMS under about 400hp. 400 seems to be the magic number when you have to build up the bottom end, fuel and spark mgt, etc.
As for alignment, I feel your pain. The MR2 is extremely sensitive to alignment. I've yet to have one done on my car around here. Air Cooled Classics has been highly recommended to me. I'm replacing my stock suspension (every component) as soon as some of my backordered parts come in.
Since you autox, you are eligible for the Toyota Motorsports Contingency Program: Really really cheap OEM and TRD parts in exchange for a promise to represent Toyota if you get a podium finish. My experience has been that the parts are about half to 2/3 (sometimes more) off. I can get you some info on the program if you haven't registered yet.
Tell me more of this toyota program!!!
I have a small list of parts I need to replace, and that would be nice to have.
Many of the alltrac owners have gone to full ems. Some with no mods but exhaust. I am only aiming for about 340-370 at the crank so I do not need something so elaborate. The emanage has proven itself as close to stand alone you can go with out "going standalone." I only need one more harness to get the most out of it, and only a few more parts before I tune the engine all the way.
The 3rd gen st205 3sgte is the best way to go. Are you talking whp or chp?
Cause the 3rd gen is worth a good 350chp with no problems. Your gear box should bolt right up too, but it may not be able to handle the power. You may want to look into that as well. If you plumb the WTA IC to the front of the car, you will have a very responsvie engine. I would upgrade the stock water core though. I had the setup at one point, but traded it for some other parts. Its supposed to have water injecting plumbed in as well. Shame we never got that engine here. Maybe could have kept the gt4 alive in the states.
I have a small list of parts I need to replace, and that would be nice to have.
Many of the alltrac owners have gone to full ems. Some with no mods but exhaust. I am only aiming for about 340-370 at the crank so I do not need something so elaborate. The emanage has proven itself as close to stand alone you can go with out "going standalone." I only need one more harness to get the most out of it, and only a few more parts before I tune the engine all the way.
The 3rd gen st205 3sgte is the best way to go. Are you talking whp or chp?
Cause the 3rd gen is worth a good 350chp with no problems. Your gear box should bolt right up too, but it may not be able to handle the power. You may want to look into that as well. If you plumb the WTA IC to the front of the car, you will have a very responsvie engine. I would upgrade the stock water core though. I had the setup at one point, but traded it for some other parts. Its supposed to have water injecting plumbed in as well. Shame we never got that engine here. Maybe could have kept the gt4 alive in the states.
Coldiron (Cold - Iron)
92' Celica alltrac: in final stages of rebuild
03' Z: Grocery Gitter
92' Celica alltrac: in final stages of rebuild
03' Z: Grocery Gitter
The GT4 was just ahead of its time for the states. I am planning to go '93+ E153 w viscous LSD for the tranny. The stock tranny for the 5SFE is so short that I would have to launch it in second or 3rd with a 3S. I have to go to 3rd to hit 60mph, if that gives you any idea. 
The Celica A-T WTA IC is a good upgrade for the MR2. It stows in the passenger side quarter panel, not the front. The airflow in the MR2 is: driver side (us) quartepanel -> compressor side of the turbo -> passenger side IC -> trunk side vents, in front of the spoiler. Air comes from behind the doors through the intake or IC and then out the engine lid in front of the trunk. Ingenious aerodynamics.
Intake for compressor
Intake for IC
IC goes here
Passes heat though engine lid
A MR2 will never overheat, if the cooling system is in good repair.
Email me off the board and I'll give you more details about the TM USA/TRD contingency program. tyler_hamilton@comcast.net
I am planning to go '93+ E153 w viscous LSD for the tranny. The stock tranny for the 5SFE is so short that I would have to launch it in second or 3rd with a 3S. I have to go to 3rd to hit 60mph, if that gives you any idea. The Celica A-T WTA IC is a good upgrade for the MR2. It stows in the passenger side quarter panel, not the front. The airflow in the MR2 is: driver side (us) quartepanel -> compressor side of the turbo -> passenger side IC -> trunk side vents, in front of the spoiler. Air comes from behind the doors through the intake or IC and then out the engine lid in front of the trunk. Ingenious aerodynamics.
Intake for compressor
Intake for IC
IC goes here
Passes heat though engine lid
A MR2 will never overheat, if the cooling system is in good repair.
Email me off the board and I'll give you more details about the TM USA/TRD contingency program. tyler_hamilton@comcast.net