Plz explain stock class rules to Tony.

[thrdeye]

Why are cars allowed to run race tires in stock class?

Why can you replace the shocks?

Why can you do a front bar and not a rear.

Why don't cars have to run the tires that they came on from the factory?

There ya go Tony, I'm sure the mystery is soon to be solved!

[TonyBolton]

Thanks.

[Dstan]

Why are cars allowed to run race tires in stock class?

Why can you replace the shocks?

Why can you do a front bar and not a rear.

Why don't cars have to run the tires that they came on from the factory?

There ya go Tony, I'm sure the mystery is soon to be solved!

I wrote the SCCA and the answer is "Just Because"

so can anyone answer why the 89 honda civic is God like??

[steverife]

The rules actually say that no racing tire is allowed.

Why does the DOT stamp tires like the A6 and V710? I have no idea.

Why does stock classes not use the same rules as the Street Touring category? I dunno, but stock class tire rules were in place before those classes existed and stock classes have always been popular.

[TedV]

ok, I'll bite

rules creep

Why are cars allowed to run race tires in stock class?

Stock cars are not allowed to run race tires. Race tires are non-DOT slicks. The fast tires on stock cars do meet DOT spec. There is a difference. There always will be a tire or 2 that is softer and work better than another. A few years ago it was found thru testing the Kumho did not meet DOT spec and were deemed illegal.

Why can you replace the shocks?

shocks wear out, stock shocks usually are for a soft cushy ride and some wear out faster than others. How do you police what the proper valving is to a shock? there is no stock spec other than physical dimensions.

Why can you do a front bar and not a rear.

Way back in history, stock cars had super soft suspensions. FWD cars were noticed to almost roll. Being able to add a front bar was figured to be more safe than rolling a car. I've been told I've had a VW on one front wheel. Front bar was slipped thru the rules as a safety addition. Rear bar not thought of as a safety item.

Why don't cars have to run the tires that they came on from the factory?

tires get old and wear out. Find me 4 original tires for a 1978 VW. Would you want to drive on 30 year old tires? Manufactures drop street tires faster than I cycle thru shoes. Different OEM tires are softer and work better than others. If you can't change tires you now have to find the latest car with the best tires from the factory. Now you have to buy several cars to test to find the fast car with OEM tire, instead of the best tire for the car you want to drive.

There ya go Tony, I'm sure the mystery is soon to be solved!

rules creep is like saying the local STM class is run anything with a tire tread wear of 140. Wait, some want to run tires with a 100 tread wear now. When enough people vote to accept the 100 tread wear tires, it becomes the rule. In a few years they may be voting on a 40 tread wear and the few who think they should be on a 140 rating are left saying WTF????

hope this helps and we can stay civil in this discussion.

[budjrfan]

ok, I'll bite

rules creep

Why are cars allowed to run race tires in stock class?

Stock cars are not allowed to run race tires. Race tires are non-DOT slicks. The fast tires on stock cars do meet DOT spec. There is a difference. There always will be a tire or 2 that is softer and work better than another. A few years ago it was found thru testing the Kumho did not meet DOT spec and were deemed illegal.

whatever......must have been a hoosier lover.

ok, I'll bite

rules creep

Why are cars allowed to run race tires in stock class?

rules creep is like saying the local STM class is run anything with a tire tread wear of 140. Wait, some want to run tires with a 100 tread wear now. When enough people vote to accept the 100 tread wear tires, it becomes the rule. In a few years they may be voting on a 40 tread wear and the few who think they should be on a 140 rating are left saying WTF???? .

WTF???????? i thought it was tread wear 200?

(i'm going to bed....this thread just gave me a headache)

[PushinTheLimit]

Thanks for answering some of those questions Ted, those are some of the best answers I've seen for them. Good to know.

[TonyBolton]

Ya'know, thats really ALL I was looking for. Thank you very much, Ted. While I still do not agree on some of them, it's at least nice to know the foundation for the allowances.

Your answers sure do hold alot more merit than "the rules say so/email them if you don't like them".

Just right off the top of my head, here...

The tire thing. Not saying you'd need to run THE stock off the floor tire in stock class, but why not one that spec's out IDENTICALLY like the stock counter part? I'm sure the same size tire in a same treadwear rating could be found.

[steverife]

The tire thing. Not saying you'd need to run THE stock off the floor tire in stock class, but why not one that spec's out IDENTICALLY like the stock counter part? I'm sure the same size tire in a same treadwear rating could be found.

Why would you want to do that, though?

[Dentspeed]

Ya'know, thats really ALL I was looking for. Thank you very much, Ted. While I still do not agree on some of them, it's at least nice to know the foundation for the allowances.

Your answers sure do hold alot more merit than "the rules say so/email them if you don't like them".

Just right off the top of my head, here...

The tire thing. Not saying you'd need to run THE stock off the floor tire in stock class, but why not one that spec's out IDENTICALLY like the stock counter part? I'm sure the same size tire in a same treadwear rating could be found.

If you were to do that, then a car like the Elise with the sport package would have an unfair advantage since it comes from the factory with R compound tires. I understand what you're saying (I have thought it myself a few times), but it would make broth class pretty much useless.

[TonyBolton]

Why would you want to do that, though?

News flash....it's called STOCK class for a reason. You want to PREPARE your car with better tires, I hear they have PREPARED classes.

[TonyBolton]

If you were to do that, then a car like the Elise with the sport package would have an unfair advantage since it comes from the factory with R compound tires. I understand what you're saying (I have thought it myself a few times), but it would make broth class pretty much useless.

Aren't most stock classes pretty much a "one make/model class"? And if not one, probably two? (C5's, S2000's, TYPE R's, MINI's, Miata's, Mustang)

Every year on this forum I hear about the "NEW HOTTNESS FOR PAX" and "WHICH CAR IS THE NEW CHEATER/PAX" car.

That right there is pretty much stating which car is easiest to win the class with, meaning one car has an ufair advantage over the other cars in the same class.

We can go 'round and 'round with it all day long, but i'm just glad to have someone actually tell me WHY, instead "thos are the rules/email them/you suck at life if you don't like them or understand them".

It's just hard for me to grasp some things in stock class like the swaybar, the tires and honestly.....why you can put a roll bar in a stock class(yet you can't do a subframe connector on a "muscle car". HOWEVER.......with TED stating the safety factor, I can at least begin to understand why(somewhat).

Basically what i'm getting out of this is that the rules could use some MAJOR updating.

[TedV]

Ya'know, thats really ALL I was looking for. Thank you very much, Ted. While I still do not agree on some of them, it's at least nice to know the foundation for the allowances.

Your answers sure do hold alot more merit than "the rules say so/email them if you don't like them".

Just right off the top of my head, here...

The tire thing. Not saying you'd need to run THE stock off the floor tire in stock class, but why not one that spec's out IDENTICALLY like the stock counter part? I'm sure the same size tire in a same treadwear rating could be found.

If you were to do that, then a car like the Elise with the sport package would have an unfair advantage since it comes from the factory with R compound tires. I understand what you're saying (I have thought it myself a few times), but it would make broth class pretty much useless.

There are open rules on items that came about simply because there is no effective way to police them. A few examples. I can buy brake rotors, wheel hubs and wheel bearings that meet OEM spec made in Germany, Brazil, or China. Quality of the part is in that order also. VW front bearings and hubs have failed under competition conditions resulting in the car rolling. You would demand and buy the German parts too. In IT road racing, there is no way to monitor every cars computer to make sure it is OEM programing. After many years of trying to figure out how to test them, they gave up and said "whatever fits inside the stock computer box". This is similar to how the Street Prep AutoX rule allowing more boost on turbo cars as long as the waste gate and pop off valves test out to open at stock OEM pressures. Yes, everyone could run a tattle tale gage/monitor but it was decided it was easier to bump the turbo cars up in class if they became too fast than make everyone run a monitor device.

Just because a manufacture says something meets specs does not mean it actually does. Look at all counterfit crap from China. There is a specified test by DOT to certify a tire. A faster tire can be made that will not pass the test. If one company is allowed to build a tire that does not meet spec, wouldn't that be an unfair advantage over a company that builds a tire to pass the DOT test? Grip comparison similar to the Lotus on Yokahama 048 R comps and the Vette on Goodyear run flats comes to mind. You would have to have the Lotus on R's unless it was a very long drag race. Toyo RA1's used to have a tread rating of 40. Then one day they decided to up it to 100 for marketing reasons. It still has the same rubber and construction.

Rules creep is a can of wiggling worms. just one by itself isn't bad, but get a 55 gallon drum full of em and eeeewwwwwyyy. The current rules may not make sense, but like women, it's the insanity we have to deal with. just have to work with it and enjoy it how you can.

[steverife]

Other than people that hung up on the name and definition of the category, who does that benefit?

I can't really think of a lot of that replace their OEM tires with the same tires, especially enthusiasts.

Also, what happens when the first guy shaves his 380 treadwear all seasons down to 3/32's and wins? If people feel like they have to do that, have you really accomplished anything other than slowing down stock class?

[Wheelman_13]

I've pretty much come to terms with the stock class rule limitations. The only suggestion I might make would be to limit the maximum tire width for each stock class, or allow inter-year wheel swaps for the same vehicle model (but not necessarily both)

Right now, the widest r-compound I think I can purchase for my '91 MR2 is 225 width (14"). However, a '93 MR2 can apparently fit up to a 275 width on it's 15" rims (rear). I'm sure the same thing applies to any number of other cars were the manufacturer offered larger wheels for later years.

Saying: B-Stock can use a maximum 245 width, A-Stock can use max 275, and SS is open width, or allowing rear-to-year wheel updates between the same trim level of the same model car...

Wishful, and rather selfish thinking, but I think it would level the playing field a bit .

Also, i would be completely OK if they put a treadwear limit on Stock. that would be less tire changing and more events between new ones, and would play right into the hands of my relatively light mid-engined car.