almost done! event 10

[MARKP]

Jason Rhodes built an entire ST car based on running the Yokohama tire of the day. Stomped everybody that year. I don't recall a discussion about banning that tire.

Sent from the Galaxy.

[steverife]

Jason Rhodes built an entire ST car based on running the Yokohama tire of the day. Stomped everybody that year. I don't recall a discussion about banning that tire.

Sent from the Galaxy.

Yup. All of STX and STU could run the hot new tires, but nothing was offered in size 15. I remember reading about the ST Civic people out west trying to make 17's work and running into all kinds of issues with gearing, ride height, and clearance. JRho took advantage of it, moved from a Civic to a car that could use 17's and won.

As a club, we've taken the wrong direction.

[John Brown]

Jason Rhodes built an entire ST car based on running the Yokohama tire of the day. Stomped everybody that year. I don't recall a discussion about banning that tire.

Sent from the Galaxy.

Yup. All of STX and STU could run the hot new tires, but nothing was offered in size 15. I remember reading about the ST Civic people out west trying to make 17's work and running into all kinds of issues with gearing, ride height, and clearance. JRho took advantage of it, moved from a Civic to a car that could use 17's and won.

As a club, we've taken the wrong direction.

not sure what you mean Rife.. but I think we are catering to the wrong folks.. the johnny come lately short timers.. that don't contribute anything back to the club.. Yea.. attendance is up and membership too... but its short lived while all the core from the beginning folks still do the work.

[thrdeye]

I think that is an apples to oranges comparison really.....which ducks around the point I made. In ST and above, it's a different ballgame. You have the folks that are in ST that are just kind of there...throw some parts at the car, doing their midpack thing, and then you have the ones that will put cubic dollars into a car that really know what they're doing and can build a car that will work.

Street obviously has fewer allowances and as such fewer cars that can be made to work in a class. For example, in street, you wouldn't even be able to TRY to fit a 17 if your car came with 15's.

...and I don't know about "wrong direction". It's a member-feedback and volunteer-driven club. As far as rules go, unfortunately, instead of a quarterly fasttrack (or even bi-annually), there's one every month and they no longer put them in the crappy magazine, of which fastrack was about the only thing worth reading. People don't (I certainly don't) have the time or desire to write a letter about every little thing, so the rulesmakers have to do the best they can. At the national level, SCCA is a business too, so that has to be considered as well. From what I understand, there is an SEB position open - go for it.

[jcox07]

I'm not worried about the guy that just buys tires beating me, cause if all he has is tires then he ain't got a chance. I'm worried about the guy that has a new car and preps said car to the max within that rule set and said person is a fairly good driver as well, then that is the car/driver I am worried about. For example, KK has a car in a class that he has prepped and it is a good example of new car and prepped fairly good and has a really good driver.

[steverife]

I think that is an apples to oranges comparison really.....which ducks around the point I made. In ST and above, it's a different ballgame. You have the folks that are in ST that are just kind of there...throw some parts at the car, doing their midpack thing, and then you have the ones that will put cubic dollars into a car that really know what they're doing and can build a car that will work.

Street obviously has fewer allowances and as such fewer cars that can be made to work in a class. For example, in street, you wouldn't even be able to TRY to fit a 17 if your car came with 15's.

...and I don't know about "wrong direction". It's a member-feedback and volunteer-driven club. As far as rules go, unfortunately, instead of a quarterly fasttrack (or even bi-annually), there's one every month and they no longer put them in the crappy magazine, of which fastrack was about the only thing worth reading. People don't (I certainly don't) have the time or desire to write a letter about every little thing, so the rulesmakers have to do the best they can. At the national level, SCCA is a business too, so that has to be considered as well. From what I understand, there is an SEB position open - go for it.

Where do you draw the line? You are content with your choices and are okay with a ban on a new "Toyo" that is faster. What if there are people out there that don't want to run the Hankook or can't run it and want to ban your tire? Why is your case more justifiable than the other person?

The Toyo witchhunt was based off of a lot of misinformation and now people are talking about banning the new version before any details are available. Why even bother with a criteria (treadwear/sizes) if it doesn't mean anything and decisions are going to be sheerly political?

This experience really soured me on the rules.

[thrdeye]

I really don't think the decisions are political. I think they really have tried to do what's possible to promote healthy classes. I may be a fool, but knowing the little I know about the guys on the SEB, I don't think they have any agenda (at least not personal ones). The change from 140 to 200 was interpreted by the membership as "kill the toyo" but that really wasn't what Howard was trying to accomplish. They apparently got much feedback from manufacturers that said a real cheater tire is much easier to make at 140 than it would be at 200.

Your post has moved the discussion further into the philosophy of the rules instead of the actual practice of them, which is fine. This is all hypothetical anyway.

If there's a good size run and none of that dual compound stuff for smaller sizes, I'll have no problem with the tire.

I feel like my thought process is justifiable because CS is perhaps the healthiest Street category class there is. If a tire (that was proven to be faster without a doubt) came into the class and only the Miata or Twin could run it (for example - since they could get down to a 16 in wheel), you've just made a one car class, and disrupted something that was healthy.

Hey, truly, it is unlikely that this would happen. But, if it was possible, I'd definitely be in favor of the exclusion list. And hey, it's street category. A new car could come out next year and make my car a paperweight. But careful consideration would/should be given before that happened! And the same level of consideration should be given to new tires as they are released to market. If not, then we just continue back down the path that led to expensive DOT_R's in Stock.

edit: Just to be clear, that Toyo really worked in STS and I'm sorry that happened that way. ST is a different category and it makes sense to me that the tire rules could/should be somewhat different.

[jcox07]

From the people I talked to at nationals about the toyo, this was what was said about the toyo tires, all sizes would have the same compound not just the 195 with the dual compound, but all sizes.

[steverife]

Toyo is super tight lipped about that stuff. I wouldn't accept anything that I heard from anyone on Toyo as gospel.

[jcox07]

Toyo may be tight lipped on it, but since nationals I have heard it from 3 other people and at nats it was from scca officals.

[steverife]

I've heard things, too. If enough people say something, it becomes treated as truth.

[John Brown]

It's been confirmed! All this time.. it was the cars.. and the drivers. NOT the tires .. who wud have thunk it?? ?

[oldmuscle69]

Great now that everything has been said I can Puke now.What size pantie liners ya'll going to use?

[John Brown]

Who's. "y'all " ?

I didn't want to hash this all out again.. but after all the whining .. it was a 200 plus tire all along. It just worked good on some cars better than others.. in fact the cars it worked on were just plain better "autocross" cars to begin with. Its like we just start all over every year and every thing that wins.. we just put on the exclusion list. Shocks, wheels, tires, hell... lets just put Darrin Seltzer and Lane Borg on the exclusion list too! They must have some kind of "bannable" combination goin on... yea?

Jesus Chist........ sometimes.. people just aint fast enuff to win. Including me. but, I aint gonna ban a "good for the sport product" in hopes Ill move up in the standings.

Im thrilled to death they are back... they work on my car!

[thrdeye]

LOL. Really?

How many tires are on the exclusion list right now?

I don't think it's ever really been used. For a while the Pirelli PZero Corsa or something was on there but I don't think that was a tire anyone would have even run.